FT：在基础设施建设问题上,一些国家特别是参与“16+1”合作的中东欧国家,与中国企业进行了许多基础设施项目合作。但也有一些成员国对项目成本或质量不太满意，波兰就是一个明显例子。有传言说，波兰甚至可能因此退出“16+1”合作机制。这在一定程度上反映了中国在推进“16+1”以及“一带一路”合作方面遇到的阻力。您对目前欧洲出现的对中国基础设施融资和建设项目的阻力怎么看？
FT: On the subject of infrastructure, clearly several countries particularly in Central and Eastern Europe have done a lot of infrastructure projects with Chinese companies. We spoke about 16+1 earlier. One developing theme is that some members in that group are not so happy about either the cost or quality of some Chinese projects that have been done. Poland is in the most obvious example in this. We’ve heard rumors that it may leave the group because of this. Obviously this reflects some of the wider issues that China has with the Belt and Road outside Europe. Is this something that worries you: that there is now a backlash in Europe against the finance and infrastructure projects that China has been doing a lot in the Europe over the past 10 years?
张：对于中国企业与全球伙伴在基础设施建设领域开展的合作，无论是在“16+1”还是“一带一路”框架下，我都是很乐观的。因为我知道，中国企业在这方面具有很强的实力。不知道你们是否去过中国？去过中国的外国人大多有一个强烈印象，就是中国基础设施建设的水平高、速度快、质量好。我还记得中国第一条高速公路建设始于上世纪80年代中期，现在仅仅过去30多年，中国的高速公路已经遍布全国。目前，中国的铁路里程已达十几万公里，其中高速铁路接近3万公里，长度居全球第一，速度也是最快的。
Zhang Ming: Personally I’m optimistic about infrastructure project cooperation between Chinese companies and their global partners, either in the framework of 16+1 or the Belt and Road Initiative. Because I know very well that Chinese companies usually have very good competence in this regard. I don’t know whether you have been to China or not. As far as I know, many foreigners in China are deeply impressed by the infrastructure in China. I still remember that we built the first highway in the middle of the 1980s. After that in a short span of 30 years, we now have a nation-wide network of highways. The construction is very fast and of high quality. We have a railway network of 100,000 km, of which 30,000 km are high-speed railway. The length is No.1 in the world, so is the speed.
我本人在非洲工作过，中非合作在过去几十年取得了飞速发展，其中一个重要合作内容就是基础设施建设。在非洲，从一国首都到另一国首都可能只有几百公里，但以往必须先飞到伦敦或巴黎中转，十分不便。在中非携手合作、共同努力下，这个状况正在发生明显改观。中非基础设施合作带来了人员流通、资金流通、信息流通，极大促进了非洲的发展。
I worked in Africa for some years. The good development of China-Africa cooperation is partly about infrastructure. Some African capitals might be just a few hundred kilometers away, but sometimes you have to fly to Paris or London to make transfer and fly back. But with the cooperation between China and Africa, this situation has been greatly improved. That gives a boost to the flow of personnel, information and capital, and that gives a big impetus to Africa’s development.
FT：您认为波兰等国家为什么会抱怨呢？
FT: So why then do you think we hear these complaints from Poland and other countries?
张：你说的这个情况我不太了解。或许存在某个个案，但个案不能代表全貌。总的来说，中国企业的基础设施建设是高水平的。
Zhang Ming: I’m not aware of the case you referred to. That might be an individual case, and individual cases do not represent the whole picture.
FT：近期，欧盟有关华为等中国科技公司的讨论在升温。在欧盟及成员国层面，一些欧方外交官表达了关切。近日波兰逮捕华为员工，有人呼吁欧盟对相关问题采取更加统一的行动。中方认为欧方有关关切是否合理？是否担心这种趋势会损害中欧关系？中方对此作何回应？
FT: Let’s turn to security. One of the issues that have been rising onto the agenda is the role of Chinese technology companies, including Huawei, in the EU. There is clearly concern among diplomats in some countries about its security implications, both at the bilateral level and the bloc’s level. We saw the recent arrest in Poland and the call for broader EU actions. Does China think these concerns are fair? Does China worry that these trends will undermine the China-EU relations? And how will China respond to the EU’s concerns on this?
张：首先，谢谢你关心华为问题，这是一个很重要的问题。作为政府官员，我不会过多谈论具体某一个企业，或为某一个企业说话。华为公司创始人任正非先生最近接受了媒体采访，他坦诚而开放，谈得很好。我注意到《金融时报》也做了报道。
Zhang Ming: First of all, I want to thank you for your interest in Huawei. This is an important issue. As a government official, I would not speak for a specific enterprise. You may have noticed the interview by the founder of Huawei, Mr. Ren Zhengfei. It’s a very good interview, very frank and open. I noticed that the Financial Times covered the interview.
我想谈谈涉及华为的一系列事件背后所反映出来的倾向。众所周知，一段时期以来，单边主义和保护主义抬头，给世界经济带来一股寒流，就像最近比利时的天气一样。现在，有人不遗余力地编造华为的“安全故事”。但实际上这些故事与安全毫无关系，没有任何事实依据和证据支撑。事实上，这类“安全故事”是出于某种政治图谋的保护主义极端行为，是逆全球化思潮的表现，其手法是把经济问题政治化、泛安全化，完全违背了自由经济和公平竞争原则。
I would rather talk more about the trends as indicated behind the case of Huawei. As we discussed for some times, in today’s world, we are seeing the rising trends of unilateralism and protectionism. That has brought a chill into global economy. Now someone is sparing no effort to fabricate a security story of Huawei. However, as a matter of fact, I do not think that this story has anything to do with security, and the so-called security concerns are not supported by any fact or evidence. Rather I believe that it is an act of protectionism with a political sense. That indicates a pushback against globalization. Such a move is trying to turn a business issue into a political one or even a security one indiscriminately, and that completely violates the principles of free and fair competition.
跟我们面前桌上的这个中式石雕不同，这个雕塑明显是中国技术，但5G技术是全球化条件下国际社会共同努力开放合作的产物，是国际社会共同的高科技创新成果，将惠及整个世界。它的全球产业链、供应链、价值链高度融合，不可以人为割裂。否则，这种不负责任的行为将破坏以规则为基础的国际秩序，破坏多边经济科技合作及其形成的产业链，令人担忧，也应该引起人们的警惕。
Unlike the sculpture on this table, which is obviously a Chinese technology, the 5G technology is a product of global open cooperation. It is an outcome of high-tech innovation by the whole international community. It is a good thing for the whole world. The global industrial, supply and value chains are highly intertwined in this area and cannot be artificially and deliberately cut by anyone. Doing so would be very irresponsible, as that may be hurtful to the rules-based global order and multilateral economic and scientific cooperation. Therefore, that merits vigilance of all people.
网络安全是当今国际社会的共同关切，也是网络技术的重要组成部分，只有通过开放透明信任合作才能得到共同保障，而利用造谣中伤、歧视排他、施压胁迫、主观猜忌都会事与愿违。中欧是全面战略合作伙伴，双方都坚持多边主义和以规则为基础的国际秩序。欧盟本身就是多边主义的产物，我相信欧盟知道自己的利益所在，希望我们的欧盟伙伴保持理性、开放、客观，坚持开放合作、自由公平竞争，维护多边经济科技合作公平公正的环境，不搞排他性、歧视性安排。中欧作为合作伙伴，我们应该做的是努力推动全球化，而不是让国际体系“部落化”。
Cyber-security is a shared concern of all mankind, and is also an important component of cyber-technology. Cyber-security can only be jointly preserved in an open and transparent manner and on the basis of trust. It is not helpful to make slandering, discrimination, pressuring, coercion or speculation against anyone else. China and the EU are comprehensive strategic partners. Both sides act in the spirit of multilateralism and preserve the rules-based global order. Actually the EU in itself is a product of multilateralism. So I believe the EU knows clearly where its own interests lie in this issue. We hope that our EU partner will take a rational and objective approach and abide by the principles of openness, fair play and free competition. We hope that the EU will continue to provide a level-playing field for the economic and scientific cooperation and avoid any exclusionary and discriminatory arrangements. As I said, the EU and China are partners to each other. What we need is globalization instead of tribalization.
FT：如果中方认为欧盟的做法是歧视性行为，将会作何回应？
FT: If what the EU does is considered as discriminatory by the Chinese side, how will China react?
张：我们会通过双方现有的沟通渠道进行深入沟通。我相信欧盟将坚定维护多边主义，支持以规则为基础的国际秩序。
Zhang Ming: We will make the best of the existing communication channels to talk about this issue. The key point is that we believe that the EU values multilateralism and the rules-based global order.
FT：您认为有关行为是保护主义做法，具体保护的什么？是技术相对落后的欧洲企业么？
FT: You see it as a protectionist measure, to protect European companies that are less technologically advanced?
张：保护企业免受外来竞争的影响。但保护主义不是办法，合作才是。
Zhang Ming: It could be a measure to protect from foreign competition. But anyway, I don’t think that protectionism is a good way out. Cooperation is.
FT：您认为这样的趋势具体会如何发展？中方真正担心的是什么？中方认为哪些措施是歧视性行为？
FT: Could you be a little bit more specific about where you see the trends going and what actions would really concern you in this area? What steps would you see as discriminatory?
张：我们所担心的是市场经济的基本原则和多边合作体系被破坏，这种破坏所造成的影响将不止影响中国，还会波及欧洲、美国、亚洲、非洲，乃至整个世界。
Zhang Ming: We do not want to see the principles of market economy and the multilateral system being undermined, which will have an impact on not only China, but also the EU, the US, Asia, Africa and everyone in the world.
FT：您是否认为欧方的某些安全关切和主张有合理之处？哪些措施又是不合理的？
FT: Can you see any justification in some of the security concerns that the Europeans have raised? Are there arguments that they made that are sound, or do you think any controls in these areas are unjustified?
张：我刚才谈到，网络安全是国际社会的共同关切，不是某一方的关切。中国、欧洲、亚洲、非洲乃至整个国际社会都有共同的关切。唯有通过开放、合作、信任、透明才能真正加以解决，歧视性中伤、捕风捉影等手段只会适得其反。
Zhang Ming: As I said earlier, issues like cyber-security is a shared concern for everyone in the world, not only specifically to Europeans, but also to Chinese, Asians, Africans and all people around the world. But to resolve the concerns, we need to act in an open, cooperative, trustful and transparent way rather than through discriminatory actions or groundless accusations.
FT：不久前，一个同中国人民解放军有联系的组织被指控侵入欧盟外交数据系统，此类事件会不会损害中国同欧盟正试图建立的互信？
FT: On a wider question of security, a group linked to the PLA is allegedly behind a recently disclosed hack of EU diplomatic data. Don’t incidents like this undermine the trust that you are trying to build with the EU?
张：你所说的就是有人编造的“安全故事”的一部分，是假新闻。
Zhang Ming: What you mentioned is a good example of the fabricated stories of security. As our great friend said: fake news.
FT：从哪方面来说这是假新闻？您是指这与中国人民解放军没有关系？
FT: It’s fake in what sense? You are saying that they are not linked to the PLA?
张：这就是一个为了达到政治目的编造出来的故事，没有任何证据或事实依据。
Zhang Ming: It’s simply a story. They are making such stories just as a political maneuver. There’s not any proof or evidence.
FT：今年欧盟将迎来大选，很多人关注并担忧民粹主义政党的崛起将会导致欧洲一体化倒退，中国对这一现象是否有关切？这一政治趋势是否符合中国的利益？
FT: European elections are coming up. There are a lot of focuses in Europe and concerns about rising populist parties that want more disintegration. Is that a concern of China? Is that political trend working in China’s interest?
张：我们密切关注发生在欧洲的事件、思潮和倾向，但这属于欧洲的内部事务，我们相信欧洲会处理好，不会加以干涉。我们希望欧洲保持和平发展，人民安居乐业。
Zhang Ming: China is of course closely following what is happening in Europe. But after all, the developments here are internal affairs of Europe, China respects the European way of dealing with the issue and we will not interfere. We hope to see peace and development in Europe and see European people living a good life.
FT：当前欧洲政治中保护主义倾向日益明显，中国对此如何应对？
FT: But clearly more protectionism in European politics is something that China would want to avoid.
张：一个时期以来，全球保护主义抬头，单边主义肆虐。中国和欧盟都是反对保护主义和单边主义的中坚力量，我们信奉多边主义原则，信奉以规则为基础的国际秩序，双方应加强这方面的合作。
Zhang Ming: Indeed protectionism and unilateralism are rising around the world and even going rampant in some parts of the world. Both China and the EU are important forces for resisting protectionism and unilateralism. We both believe in multilateralism and the rule-based global order. We will step up cooperation in this regard.
FT：我想借此就伊朗核问题提问。中国、俄罗斯和欧盟作为伊核协议签署方正在努力维护协议的权威性。在此方面，中国与欧盟开展了哪些合作？您如何评价这些努力？中国企业甚或政府机构会否加入欧盟即将建立的专门机制（SPV）?
FT: That leads neatly into the question which I have about the Iran nuclear deal. There are attempts going on to keep it alive among China, Russia and European signatories. How close your contacts have been with the Europeans on this? What do you think of the efforts? Would you see Chinese companies or even Chinese government organizations joining the special purpose vehicle which the Europeans say they will launch soon?
张：在维护伊核协议问题上，多年来中国与欧盟保持密切合作。伊核协议的达成是多边外交的重要成果，也是通过政治外交手段解决地区热点问题、维护地区和平的典范，我们赞赏欧盟在这一问题上发挥的重要作用。伊核协议得到了安理会的核可，理应得到全面认真的执行，这对维护全球核不扩散体系和中东地区的和平将发挥重要作用，符合国际社会的共同利益。
Zhang Ming: For years China and the EU have maintained close cooperation regarding the JCPOA. The agreement is an important outcome of multilateral diplomacy. It is a good example of settling regional hotspot issues and preserving regional peace through political and diplomatic means. We commend the important role of the EU in this regard. This agreement was endorsed by the UN Security Council. It should be implemented in a thorough and earnest way. It helps preserve the global non-proliferation regime and the Middle East peace. And it is in the interest of the international community.
在美国退出伊核协议并对伊朗重启单边制裁之后，包括中欧在内的协议签署方仍然本着负责任的态度致力于继续执行这一协议，保持与伊朗的正常合作。欧盟为此做了大量工作，包括建立专门机制。中方对此表示赞赏，愿与欧方一道继续履行各自应尽责任，维护伊核协议的权威性。对于专门机制，我相信中国企业会有兴趣。
After the withdrawal of the United States and the resumption of unilateral sanctions on Iran, the remaining signatories including China and the EU still act in a responsible manner to deliver on the JCPOA and maintain normal business ties with Iran. I know that the EU has made a great deal of efforts in this connection. That includes the SPV that you just mentioned. China applauds the efforts made by the EU and we hope to continue to work with the EU to fulfill due responsibilities and obligations to keep the JCPOA alive. As for the SPV, I believe Chinese companies will be interested.
FT：您具有丰富的中东问题经验。当前欧洲国家对于伊朗从事暗杀行动以及试射导弹等行为越来越不满，您是否担心这将对伊核协议造成威胁，导致其逐步瓦解？
FT: I know you have a great deal of Middle East experience. Are you worried at all that the JCPOA could be threatened by the rising skepticism in many European countries about Iran’s behavior in other fields? There is a rising anger about what European alleged to be assassination plots orchestrated by Iran and long-standing grievances over Iran’s missile programs and role in regional conflicts. Are you concerned that this might gradually unravel the JCPOA?
张：多年来中东地区不乏热点，可以说中东不和平，世界就不会太平，这也是多年来中欧携手合作致力于中东和平进程的原因，包括为达成伊核协议所作努力。我们坚信地区热点问题只有通过国际社会的共同合作、通过政治外交的手段才能得到妥善解决，这有利于地区和世界的和平稳定。这是中欧的共识，我们应坚持这一点。
Zhang Ming: For years we have seen many hotspot issues in the Middle East. It is fair to say that without a peaceful Middle East, there would not be a stable world. That is exactly why China and the EU have the shared commitment to the peace process in the Middle East. That explains why we made great efforts to conclude the JCPOA. It is our firm belief that regional hotspot issues could only be properly settled through cooperative, political and diplomatic means. It contributes to regional peace and global stability. This is what China and the EU see eye to eye each other and we will stick to such commitment.
FT：对于伊朗违反伊核协议，以及在欧盟境内开展暗杀行动等做法，欧盟表示将采取更多制裁措施，您认为这是正确的解决之道吗？
FT: Do you support then the growing EU threat of action on Iran’s behaviour outside of the JCPOA? We’ve already seen sanctions this year over the alleged murder plots in Europe. There may be sanctions on missiles and other things later. Do you think this is the right road to go down on this?
张：我认为正确的方向是持续保持国际社会的政治外交努力，对于多边努力达成的成果要坚持不懈地推动，这样才能达到和平稳定的目标。
Zhang Ming: The right way to go down is the continued political and diplomatic efforts. It is important to preserve the results of multilateral diplomacy. Only in this way can we have peace and stability.
FT：欧盟最近的做法能实现这一目标吗？
FT: Does the EU approach achieve that?
张：我相信欧盟信奉多边主义，将坚持通过政治外交努力解决地区热点问题。
Zhang Ming: I am confident that the EU believes in multilateralism and commits to political and diplomatic approaches.
FT:长期以来，中欧还在人权问题上存在分歧。欧盟批评中国新疆地区的人权状况，希望中方尊重当地宗教信仰和言论自由，保障少数民族权利。中方对此作何回应？
FT: Another point of tension between the EU and China for a long time has been human rights. The EU has criticized what it calls the deteriorating human rights situation in Xinjiang. It says it expects China to respect freedom of religion, freedom of expression, and the rights of ethnic minorities. How does China respond to this?
张：长期以来，中国政府高度重视人权事业。在促进和保障人权方面，中国是做得很好的。经过40年改革开放，中国使7亿多人口脱贫，这在人权领域可谓功莫大焉、善莫大焉。同时，中国也为其他发展中国家和国际社会对减贫道路的探索作出了贡献。
Zhang Ming: The Chinese government is committed to protection and promotion of human rights. I’m proud to say that China is actually doing a good job in protecting human rights. In the past 40 years of reform and opening-up, we have successfully lifted more than 700 million people out of poverty. In the field of human rights, that could be quite a feat. Our efforts contribute to poverty reduction in other developing countries and the broader international community.
中国有14亿人口，需要吃饱、穿暖、居住、读书、看病、养老，这对政府来说不是一件简单的事情。如果中国政府没有促进和保障人权的高度责任感，是不可能取得上述成就的。
It’s not easy for China to deliver education, medical, elderly and housing services to the 1.4 billion Chinese people. Without a strong sense of responsibility to protect and promote human rights, it is impossible to finish such a daunting task.
中国是个多民族国家。中国《宪法》规定，各民族一律平等。中国政府高度重视包括新疆在内的少数民族地区经济社会发展，重视保护少数民族语言和文化。
China is a multi-ethnic country. According to China’s Constitution, all ethnicities are equal. The Chinese government attaches great importance to the development of all ethnicities and regions. We have done a lot of work to help preserve the indigenous languages and cultures of ethnic minorities. Xinjing is just a case in point.
FT:您的意思是，欧方对中国的指责是不公平的？
FT: Are you saying the EU criticism is unfair?
张：欧方某些人士要么是不了解真实情况，要么是无视中国在人权领域取得的成就，这是欧方的问题。
Zhang Ming: They either have little knowledge of the actual situation, or try to turn a blind eye to what China has achieved.
FT:去年10月以来，有关中国新疆地区严重侵犯人权的报道越来越多，欧盟外交官员也多次表达关切。
FT: There have been more and more reports since that statement was issued in October, alleging very serious abuses in that region. This is something that the EU diplomats must be raising with you more and more. This has emerged as something of great concern in Brussels and among European member states, hasn’t it?
张：关于新疆形势，有一些媒体在报道时夸大其词、过度渲染。你提到欧盟，最近欧盟官员访问了新疆，他们实地考察了当地的职业技术教育培训中心，亲眼目睹了真实情况。
Zhang Ming: There are many media hypes about the situation in Xinjiang. I know that some EU officials have been to Xinjiang recently to see what is happening in the vocational education and training institutions with their own eyes.
新疆地处中国西部，是少数民族聚居地区。目前中国仍然存在发展不平衡的问题，一些边远和少数民族聚居区发展水平还不够高。部分原因是，一些少数民族的年轻人受到极端主义思想的影响，他们不读书学习，难以找到工作，对社会稳定造成较大影响。
Xinjiang is the westernmost province in China, home to many ethnic minorities. As you are aware, in China we still have a development gap between different regions. Especially in some remote regions inhabited by ethnic minorities, there is still a lot of room for improvement. One reason is that some young people have been radicalized. They don’t go to school, they fail to land a job, and they have been seriously affected by extremist ideologies. That could have an impact on China’s stability.
近些年，就像巴黎、布鲁塞尔和伦敦的情况一样，中国也遭受过恐怖主义袭击，也是恐怖主义的受害者。本着对人民负责的态度，中国政府坚决反对和打击恐怖主义。与此同时，我们注重标本兼治，帮助那些缺少文化知识的年轻人，为他们提供学习机会，使他们掌握国家通用语言，获得工作技能、实现就业，能够自食其力和供养家庭，并且摆脱极端主义影响，走上正确的道路。
Over the years, there have been several terrorist attacks on the Chinese soil, like what happened in Paris, Brussels and London. So China is also a victim of terrorist attacks. The Chinese government is resolute in fighting terrorism. In addressing terrorism, we address not only the symptoms but also the root causes. We help these young people gain skills and knowledge, find jobs to support their families, so that they will stay clear of the impact of terrorist ideas as quickly as possible.
FT:最后一个问题。我们刚才就多边主义及其重要性进行了很多交流。可是，当英国政治家声称他们将离开欧盟这一多边组织，并依靠自身实现繁荣和成功，您对此是否感到惊讶？
FT: One final question. We talked a lot about multilateralism and its importance. How surprised are you to hear British politicians making the argument that Britain can leave a multilateral system like the EU, and can prosper and succeed on its own?
张：我们会耐心观察。
Zhang Ming: Wait and see.
FT:您从欧盟所在地观察英国“脱欧”，有什么特别的感受？
FT: It must be unusual to watch this process from here unfold in Britain.
张：我也有同事在伦敦关注有关进展，也许会有不同感受。中国的传统是劝和不劝离。无论如何，英国“脱欧”是你们欧洲的内部事务，中方不会干预。如果你们坚持，希望能够实现平稳分离，并减少对自身和世界造成的影响。
Zhang Ming: Maybe. I have colleagues in London observing this. Anyway, according to Chinese tradition, we don’t encourage any couple to separate. The separation will hurt both. But it’s your internal affair and we cannot interfere. If you insist on separation, ok, make it smoothly, and less influence to yourselves and to the world.
FT: 感谢您接受《金融时报》采访！
FT: Thank you very much!