驻欧盟使团团长张明大使接受《金融时报》专访实录
Transcript of Ambassador Zhang Ming’s Exclusive Interview with the Financial Times
2019年1月28日
January 28, 2019
金融时报（以下简称FT）：您如何评价当前中欧关系发展现状？
FT: How do you view the state of China-EU relations? How do you describe them?
张明大使（以下简称张）：总体看，当前中欧关系很好，正在持续向前发展。我于2017年10月抵达布鲁塞尔担任中国驻欧盟大使。在我到任后的一年多时间里，见证了中欧关系快速发展。特别是去年7月双方在北京成功举行第20次中欧领导人会晤并发表了联合声明。中欧双方各领域、各层级交往十分密切。多位欧委会委员、欧洲议会议员相继访华，中方多个代表团访欧。双方在不同层级和领域建立了70多个交流机制，保持着密切沟通与对话。
Zhang Ming: Generally speaking, I must say that China-EU relations are in good shape and are getting better and better. I arrived in Brussels in October 2017. I am lucky enough that in the past one year and four months, our bilateral relations have been going up. Last July in particular, we had a successful summit in Beijing with a joint statement adopted. In the second half of last year, we had very frequent exchanges in different circles. Several EU commissioners and many MEPs visited China. Many Chinese delegations came to Brussels. Between China and the EU, we have over 70 exchanges mechanisms at different levels and in different areas. We keep communication and dialogue to promote bilateral relations. So far so good.
FT：您是否同意，是美国总统特朗普促使中欧拉近了彼此关系？
FT: Do you think that Donald Trump has given an impetus into China-EU relations? Are you closer as a result of the political changes in America?
张：双边关系发展是双方的事，我不认为某个第三方会对此产生重大影响。中欧双方都抱有真诚意愿，深化双方在经贸、环保、气候变化以及国际和地区热点问题等各方面合作，共同维护多边主义，反对单边主义和保护主义。
Zhang Ming: Bilateral relationship is a matter of two sides. I don’t think that a third party can play such a significant role. Both China and the EU have the intention and sincerity to strengthen our cooperation in economy, trade, environmental protection, climate change, regional and international issues, and in maintaining multilateralism and resisting unilateralism and protectionism.
FT：在不少合作领域，中欧关系尚未释放出全部潜能。双方也还存在一些分歧，且与中美之间分歧类似，您对此怎么看？
FT: In many areas, China-EU relations have not necessarily reached their full potential. There are areas of tensions as well. Some of the areas of tensions are similar to those with the US. How do you see it?
张：当前中欧合作水平与规模均处在历史高位，但仍有巨大潜力有待挖掘。双方应就此加强合作，不断释放合作潜力。正如世界上任何一对双边关系一样，中欧之间也存在一些分歧。有些分歧与双边务实合作有关，包括市场准入、“强制技术转让”、公平竞争等。在这些方面，中方愿意倾听有关意见建议。
Zhang Ming: China-EU cooperation has reached a high level and has a big size. Still, we have a huge potential. We must work together to bring out the full potential. We must admit that China and the EU have differences, like in all other partnerships. In my view, some differences relate to practical cooperation, like market access, transfer of technology, level-playing field, etc. For these complaints, we are eager to listen to what others have to say to find out what we can and are supposed to do to improve ourselves.
经过40年改革开放，中国完成了从计划经济向市场经济的过渡。这个转型过程是渐进的，也是艰难、复杂的，但中国的步子走得很坚定、很扎实。在改革开放之初，我们可能对市场准入、公平竞争等没有太多概念。但与40年前、30年前、20年前，甚至10年前相比，我们今天在市场准入、公平竞争、知识产权保护等方面取得了巨大的进步。
In the past 40 years of reform and opening-up, China has transitioned from the planned economy to market economy. At the early stage of reform and opening-up, we might not have much idea what market access and level-playing field are all about. The transition has been gradual yet firm. The process has been difficult and complex, yet we are taking solid steps forward. Compared with 40, 30, 20 or even 10 years ago, we have made a big difference in expanding market access and IPR protection. We are making significant progress in this regard.
我有一些在中国投资的欧洲企业家朋友曾经对中国的发展作出中肯的评价，他们认为中国的学习能力很强，中国市场经济转型的过程走得很快，中国改革开放的政策是一流的，但中国在政策执行上存在一些问题。我想你们也注意到，中国领导人多次明确表示，将坚持深化改革、扩大开放，推动中国的市场经济转型走得更深、更远、更成熟。
I have some European business friends working in China whose observation is pertinent. They said to me that China is a good learner. The transition toward market economy has been rather fast. China has made a good policy of reform and opening-up. But the policy implementation in some areas might be a bit problematic. I agree. The Chinese leadership and government have made it abundantly clear on many occasions that China will go further in reform and opening-up. We will develop market economy in greater depth.
在这个过程中，我们也需要听取合作伙伴的意见，甚至是对中国的品头论足。这些意见可能很刺耳，但我们愿意倾听，因为这有助于我们探索深化改革、扩大开放的道路。
In this process, China is quite open to constructive suggestions from our partners. Even though the criticism is sometimes harsh, we are open to that, as we believe it will help us do a better job.
我也经常告诉欧洲朋友们：你们所提出的希望和中国改革开放的大方向是一致的。希望欧洲朋友给予我们信心和耐心。说到信心，就是要相信中国改革开放的方向是清晰的、明确的，是不可改变的。保持耐心，是因为中国这辆车子太大了，我们需要非常小心谨慎地驾驶，按照既定方向平稳地前行，不能出任何事故，否则不仅对中国是灾难，对世界也是灾难。这就像一位欧洲朋友告诉我的：方向远比速度更重要。
I often reassure my European friends by saying that their desire is in line with the general direction of reform and opening-up in China. We hope to get more confidence and patience from our European friends. For confidence, I mean that the direction of reform and opening-up is set and clear. For patience, if I may compare China to a big lorry, we must drive it with great caution to make sure that the lorry could move in the right direction and in a safe and sound manner. Otherwise, there might be an accident, which is bad not only for China but for the whole world as well. As a European friend of mine said, direction is more important than speed.
FT：中欧双边投资协定（BIT）谈判进展如何，有没有时间表？
FT: Could you give an update on the investment agreement? Is there any timescale for the reaching of such agreement?
张：双边投资协定谈判是目前中欧合作中的一件大事。双方投入都很大，也很真诚地在推进谈判进程。去年，双方交换了负面清单，推动谈判迈入新阶段。目前谈判仍在进行中，去年共举行了三轮正式谈判，我们期待今年谈判能取得新的进展。至于协定何时能够最终达成，我想说，谈判是双方相向而行、相互妥协的过程，希望欧盟的朋友们与我们共同努力。
Zhang Ming: The BIT talk is a priority in China-EU relations. Both sides have put in a great deal of effort. Both sides are pushing the talks in good faith. Last year, the two sides exchanged the market access offers. That marked a big progress and brought the talks into a new phase. The talks are still going on. Last year, we had three rounds of formal talks. This year, we hope to make further progress. To conclude the agreement requires both sides to work together in the same spirit. This is a process of making compromise. We hope that our European friends can work together with us.
FT：您希望欧方作出哪些妥协？
FT: What compromises are you looking for from the European side?
张：中方高度评价欧方推动贸易投资自由化便利化的立场，希望欧盟的朋友们继续坚定地向前走，不要走回头路。以欧盟投资审查立法为例，虽然这是欧盟自身的权利，但我们希望相关措施符合贸易投资自由化便利化的原则和精神，不应针对某个特定国家，否则就是歧视性做法。
Zhang Ming: China recognizes the commitment of the European side to trade and investment liberalization and facilitation. We hope that our European friends would not move in the opposite direction, but continue to move in the right way. Take the FDI screening legislation. Of course, the EU has the right to make such legislation. But we hope that the final outcome would be in line with the spirit of free trade and investment facilitation. We don’t hope to see a legislation that is targeted at a specific country. Otherwise, it would be discriminatory.
再比如，在BIT谈判过程中，双方可能会设定一个最终目标，而达到这一目标需要较长时间的努力。如果我们换一种思维方式，设立一些阶段性目标，就能实现早期收获，推动谈判取得更多进展。
Back to the BIT talks. Usually, the negotiating parties tend to set an ultimate goal. Reaching the goal takes quite some time. We could take a more flexible approach by setting phase-based targets. We could have some early harvests and get something done first, which, I believe, would be followed by more to come.
FT：您是否担心欧盟投资审查措施有歧视性或针对中国之嫌？
FT: Are you worried that the current FDI screening proposal risks being discriminatory and being targeted at China?
张：媒体对这方面的问题有大量报导，使部分中国企业对在欧投资前景产生担忧。这种情况如果发生，显然是不利于双方合作的。
Zhang Ming: That’s not my personal view. There is a lot of media coverage in that direction. That may get some Chinese investors worried about the potential trend. If that becomes a reality, it would not be a good thing to bilateral cooperation.
FT：如果有关措施歧视性地针对中国，中方将作何回应？
FT: How would China respond if it felt that this measure was discriminatory against China?
张：正如我刚才所说，中欧双方有许多沟通交流机制。如果中方认定它是一种歧视性的政策，我们首先会通过双边沟通共同努力解决这个问题。
Zhang Ming: As I said earlier, we have many mechanisms for communication between China and the EU. If the final outcome turns out to be discriminatory, we would first resort to these mechanisms to seek solutions through consultation.
比如，今天媒体上谈得很多的是“强制性技术转让”，但在中欧之间，可能我们要注意另外一个问题——强制技术不转让。欧方至今还在对华进行高技术出口管制，仍然对华实施军售禁令。再比如，在《中国入世议定书》第15条问题上，欧盟方面至今没有全面履行有关条款义务，没有在反倾销调查中弃用“替代国”做法。这些都是歧视性做法。
Let me give you more examples. Many media reports we are reading now are about the so-called forced transfer of technology. We should also discuss the issue of forced non-transfer of technology. Furthermore, the EU has yet to fully finish its work to fulfill its obligations under Article 15 of China’s WTO Accession Protocol. It has yet to abandon the analogue-country practice in anti-dumping investigation. The EU is still having high-tech export control and arms embargo against China. All these are discriminatory in nature.
对于这些问题，作为欧盟的合作伙伴，我们有充分耐心，通过沟通来解决。中欧都信奉多边主义，如果双边沟通解决不了，我们会通过多边机制来解决有关分歧，不会诉诸单边主义。
We view the EU as our partner, and we are ready to discuss these issues through the mechanisms we have. If we fail to address them through bilateral channels, we still have multilateral mechanisms. So my point is that China and the EU both uphold the spirit of multilateralism. We both want to resolve the issues through communication instead of resorting to unilateral actions.
FT：您的意思是，如果双边渠道无法解决分歧，中方将在世贸组织或其他国际组织起诉欧盟？这将对中欧关系造成怎样的损害？
FT: Do you mean that if the problems are not resolved bilaterally, China would take the EU to the WTO or other international organizations? How damaging is it to the relationship if these measures you say are discriminatory are not abolished?
张：你提的问题很有意思，说明你对中国文化还是有些了解的。传统上，中国人不愿打官司，好像伙伴之间一旦打起官司来就撕破脸了，会对双方的关系造成影响。但是在市场经济条件下，多边仲裁机制应该是解决伙伴之间分歧的好办法。当然，我刚才也提到，解决分歧的首要办法是沟通，在充分沟通也无法解决问题的情况下，我们才会选择多边仲裁。
Zhang Ming: It is an interesting question. You seem to know something about Chinese culture. Traditionally, two friends do their best to avoid lawsuits. If they go to the court and make their disputes open, that would be hurtful to their relationship. But under the conditions of market economy, we believe that the multilateral system, like arbitration, could be a helpful way to resolve disputes. Of course, Chinese people prefer face-saving options. So we would seek bilateral communication first.
FT：刚才您提到欧盟对华武器禁运，这一措施已存在近30年。解除禁运是否只有象征意义？中方会从欧盟采购武器吗？还是说，这只是个原则性问题？
FT: You mentioned the arms embargo. It has been in place for almost 30 years. Is it anything more than symbolic? Does China really have an interest in buying arms from the EU? Or is this just about principles?
张：这是对中国的歧视性做法，违背了公平、公正、自由贸易等原则，应该取消。
Zhang Ming: China’s interest is about fair play. We want fairness, justice and free trade. We care most about principles, not buying and selling arms.
FT：欧方很多人认为中方是在利用“16+1”合作，对欧洲分而治之，您对此怎么看？中国是不是在利用有关合作打造更易管控的次区域机制？
FT: Of course the EU has its own complaints about some of China’s behaviour, as you know, like on trade, but also on the 16+1 initiative which some people in Brussels and some capitals see as an attempt by China to divide the EU. This is something that is quite important. Is China trying to use the 16+1 to divide EU to find a more manageable sub-regional group to deal with?
张：“16+1”合作始于2012年，6年多来，有关合作进展顺利，得到了中东欧16国的欢迎。我们相信合作会产生双赢结果，这不仅是中国与中东欧16国的双赢，对欧盟一体化进程以及欧盟内部的平衡发展也是有益的。应该说，我们同中东欧16国建立合作机制是怀着真诚、善良愿望的，中方丝毫不存在任何地缘政治方面的意图。
Zhang Ming: In the past six years since its inception, this cooperation mechanism has made good progress, and it has been well received by the sixteen central and eastern European countries. We believe that cooperation is mutually beneficial by nature. This is not only a good thing for the sixteen and the one, but also contributes to the balanced development of Europe as a whole. Eventually, that will be conducive to the EU integration process. So this cooperation mechanism, initiated by the sixteen CEE countries and China, is well intentioned. It is not geopolitically driven at all.
至于说分化欧盟，这不符合中国的利益。中国与欧盟建交40多年，始终坚持的一条政策，就是坚定支持欧洲一体化。无论欧洲一体化处于顺境或是逆境，中方这一立场从未改变，欢迎你们去核实。其中原因很简单，因为欧洲一体化进程符合世界多极化的方向，一个繁荣、团结、强大和发展的欧洲有利于中国，一个强大的欧元同样符合中国的利益。
To divide Europe is not in the interest of China. Actually from day one of China-EU diplomatic relations over forty years ago, we have long commitment to the policy of supporting European integration. China has never changed such a position, whether when the European integration process was in a good time or met headwinds. You can have a check for our performance in this regard in the past forty years. The reason is simple. The European integration is conducive to a multi-polar world. A prosperous, united, and strong Europe is in the interest of China. A strong euro is also in the interest of china.
FT：您认为英国“脱欧”会对欧洲一体化产生多大影响？
FT: How damaging do you think is Brexit to the European Union?
张：对英国“脱欧”问题，中国有句老话叫“劝和不劝离”，因为我们总是认为“合则两利，分则两伤”。当然，欧洲人应该有智慧把它处理好，不会造成“两伤”的结局。这也是我们所希望的。如果说英国“脱欧”是不可避免的，希望欧盟和英国能够处理得稳妥一些、顺畅一些，尽可能减少对欧盟、英国、中国以及世界经济的影响。
Zhang Ming: Well, by Chinese tradition, we do not want to see the separation of any couple. Chinese people prefer to see getting together than getting separated. We always believe that cooperation stands to benefit all. And confrontation may lead to a lose-lose situation. European people have the wisdom to handle Brexit well so as to avoid a lose-lose situation. This is what China wants to see. If Brexit is a result that cannot be changed, then we hope that the EU and the UK can handle this process in an orderly fashion, so as to minimize the impact on the British, European, and the global economy.
FT：您是否更担心英国“无协议脱欧”？
FT: Are you now more worried about a Brexit without a deal?
张：欧洲朋友也好，欧洲以外的朋友也好，在观察这一事件时，都会担心它处理不好可能对世界造成冲击。欧盟、英国都是中国传统的合作伙伴，我希望这一问题能够得到稳妥处理，避免对中欧、中英合作造成影响。
Zhang Ming: I think it’s only natural for anyone to have some concerns in this regard, whether they are inside the EU or outside this region. This issue, if mishandled, might have some impact on the global economy. Both the UK and the EU are China’s partners. So that’s why we hope that Brexit can be dealt with in a prudent and sound way so as not to affect China-EU and China-UK cooperation.
FT：有人说，英国一方面在处理“脱欧”问题本身，另一方面也在谋求与其他国家建立新的关系。欧盟成员国对英国的态度似乎要比欧盟机构的态度更温和一些。从这方面来说，您能不能谈谈与欧盟机构打交道的经验？
FT: A diplomat here who once worked in China said there are some parallels between the Brexit negotiations and how the EU deals with other countries in the world. Sometimes Britain has had a softer message from European capitals than from the EU institutions in Brussels. Have you taken any lessons from how this negotiation has played out, how to deal with the EU?
张：到任一年多来，我的确积累了一些同欧盟机构打交道的经验。我觉得对我帮助最大的，就是以诚相待。中欧之间有很多共同利益，当然也存在一些分歧，但共同利益要远大于分歧。不管是扩大我们的共同利益，还是管控、解决分歧，都需要以诚相待，这一点是管用的。
Zhang Ming: Well, in the past one year and more, I have gained some experience in engaging with the EU institutions. The biggest thing I have learned is that it’s important to engage with the institutions with great sincerity. We have shared interests, and we also have differences sometimes. But the shared interests far outweigh the differences we have. So whether in terms of promoting our shared interests or managing our differences, sincerity always holds the key and that really works.
FT：刚才提到了投资审查的问题。您应该注意到，对中国在欧企业的关切现在已经对欧盟很多领域的政策制定包括竞争政策领域造成影响。欧洲企业之间的并购案常被放到与中国企业未来竞争的棱镜下审视。您对此是否感到担忧？还是认为，欧盟的相关考虑是很自然的事情？
FT: This is linked in part to the investment screening. You’ve seen concern about Chinese business inside the EU going into many other areas of EU policymaking, even in areas like competition policy now, mergers between European companies are being seen through the prism of Chinese competition in the future. Is this a concern for you, or do you think this is a natural thing for the EU to take into account?
张：关于中国企业对欧盟投资审查的担忧，我已经如实向欧盟朋友们转告，并强调，希望他们在处理有关问题时遵循多边主义原则。至于欧盟内部在企业并购方面的政策把握，我将予以关注。
Zhang Ming: As you referred to the concerns about the investment screening, actually I have communicated sufficiently with European friends about that. I emphasized that it is important to abide by the multilateral spirit. As for the European decisions on certain M&A cases, what I can do is to observe.
FT：您提到，从政治意义上来说,一体化是件好事,因为它意味着一个稳定的多极世界。但当出现类似西门子—阿尔斯通的并购案时,显然对中国是不利的,因为这是针对中国的竞争措施,以阻止中车这样的中国企业在欧盟发展。您对此一定感到担心吧？
FT: On the one hand you are saying that in the political sense, integration is good presumably because it means a stable, multi-polar world. But for example when you have a case like the Siemens-Alstom merger, that is not good for China because that is something to compete with China and to prevent the CRRC from expanding in the EU. This must be a development that is worrying you?
张：这方面我们完全没有担心。我刚才讲到，过去40年，中国实现从计划经济向市场经济转型，有很多东西是向欧洲伙伴学来的，我们逐步掌握了市场经济的一些规律和原则。市场经济提倡合作，同时不排斥竞争。竞争能够促使双方乃至多方不断完善自己、取得进步，实现多赢的局面。所以，我们并不惧怕竞争。世界市场很大，不能只有一家阿尔斯通、一家西门子，也不能只有一家中车。大家应该携起手来，一起合作，一起竞争，为我们的世界提供更好的服务。
Zhang Ming: Actually I have no worries in this regard. I just described to you how China has transitioned from the planned economy to market economy in the past 40 years. In this process we have learned a lot from our European partners, like the laws and principles governing market economy. In a market economy, we have cooperation and we also have competition. So we do not reject competition. Because this process may propel all the participants to improve themselves, eventually leading to an all-win situation. We do not fear competition.
FT：中国中车是否会进一步拓展在欧业务？中方是否将欧洲作为其铁路产业的优先方向？
FT: Do you envisage the CRRC expanding further in the EU. Is rail in Europe an industrial priority for China?
张：为什么不呢？
Zhang Ming: Why not?
FT：您预计在未来5到10年，中车将在欧洲占据多大市场份额？
FT: How big presence do you expect the CRRC to have in 5 or 10 years time?
张：这将是市场合作与竞争的结果，不是我个人能够预测的。
Zhang Ming: This is a process that is driven by market forces. It’s not something I can forecast.