双语:崔天凯大使应邀接受美国前财长鲍尔森“对话鲍尔森”节目专访(实录)
发布时间:2020年11月06日
发布人:nanyuzi  

崔天凯大使应邀接受美国前财长鲍尔森对话鲍尔森节目专访(实录)

Ambassador Cui Tiankai Takes an Interview with Former US Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson at the Podcast Program “Straight Talk with Hank Paulson” (Transcript)


2020年8月28日

28 August 2020


8月28日,崔天凯大使应邀参加美国前财长鲍尔森主持的“对话鲍尔森”播客访谈节目,重点就当前中美关系、两国经贸合作、国际治理、中国经济形势等问题进行交流互动。有关访谈内容已于9月14日对外播出。全文实录如下:

On August 28, Ambassador Cui Tiankai took an interview with former US Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson at the Podcast program “Straight Talk with Hank Paulson” on current China-US relations, bilateral economic and trade cooperation, international governance, China’s economy and more. The interview was aired on September 14. Here is the full transcript of the interview:


鲍尔森:大使先生,欢迎来到播客访谈节目。去年是美中建交40周年。很显然,未来40年的美中关系将会变得大为不同。目前,我们两国经济占全球经济总量的35%左右,还是全球军费支出最多的国家。我们都是雄心勃勃、具有竞争力的国家。因此,全世界都在关注美中两国如何相处或针锋相对。在双边关系紧张时刻担任中国驻美大使,你的工作并不轻松。我一直很尊重你的专业精神和沉着冷静,尊重你代表中国政府努力了解美方对两国关系看法并寻求共识的努力。首先,我想从你如何开始个人职业生涯这个问题谈起。你生于1952年。中国1978年开始实行改革开放时,你二十多岁,见证了许多中国现代化的进程。你是如何成为一名外交官的?你的外交职业生涯是如何开始的?你在不同时期是如何受到身边事物影响的?

Secretary Paulson: Mr. Ambassador, welcome to the podcast. I’m very much looking forward to this discussion. Last year was the 40th anniversary of the formal diplomatic relations between our two countries. It’s clear that the next 40 years will be very different from the last four decades. Our two countries now make up some 35% of the global economy and we are top spenders in our military. We are both ambitious with competitive countries. So the entire world is watching what we do with or against each other. Being an ambassador during a time of tension is no easy job. I have long respected your professionalism, your equanimity and the fact that you are striving to understand American perspectives on the relationship and searching for common ground where possible while you represent the government of China. But I’d like to start with how your career began. You were born in 1952. So you were in your 20s when reforms were launched in 1978, which means you have seen a lot of Chinese modern history. What was your pathway to becoming a diplomat? How did your career unfold? How were you influenced by what was happening around you in China at different times?


崔大使:首先,很高兴同财长先生再次交流,也感谢你邀请我参加此次访谈节目。当中国开始实行改革开放时,我二十多岁。在此之前,我经历了文革的动荡岁月,中学没毕业就离开家乡到紧临中苏边境的黑龙江农村插队,在那里种植大豆和小麦5年多。这段经历让我对中国农村和贫困问题有了深入了解,也对国家真正需要什么有了深刻认识。我们这代人很幸运,大部分工作时间处于改革开放年代,并始终相信自己的国家处于正确的发展方向。我们的历史使命就是全力以赴实现现代化目标,为国家和人民作贡献。同样幸运的是,我有机会到美国工作和学习。从某种意义上讲,我个人在中美两国都有一些经历,这让我对中美如何处理两国关系、对彼此有何需求、如何相互学习有了更好的理解。我的外交职业生涯的开始或多或少与我的好奇心有关。我一直对国际问题、世界局势以及相关问题很感兴趣。这也是我在上世纪70年代末被联合国译训班录取的原因,那时中国刚刚开始改革开放。80年代初,我成为一名联合国译员并在纽约总部工作。那是我第一次出国。

Ambassador Cui: Mr. Secretary, first of all, it is such a great pleasure to talk to you again. I’m very grateful that you have invited me to this conversation. I was in my 20s when China started to reform and open up. But even before that, when I was a young teenager, we had the Cultural Revolution, the chaotic years in China. Even before I could finish my high school, I was sent to a very remote, cold rural area along the Chinese and Russian border. I worked on the farm growing soybeans and wheat for more than five years. That’s how I got to know China’s rural area and the problem of poverty. That’s how I got to know what the country really needed. So I think people in my generation were very lucky that we spent most of our career in the decades of reform and opening-up. And we believe that the country is on the right track. It’s the historical mission of my generation of Chinese to do our best to contribute to this modernization drive, to do whatever we can for our country and our people. I have also been lucky to spend some time here in the United States, both working and studying here. So in a sense, I personally have had some experience both of China and of the United States. That gave me a very good understanding of how our two countries should manage our relations, what we need from each other, and what we can learn from each other. So as for my diplomatic career, I think more or less I was brought here by intellectual curiosity. I have always been interested in international issues, the global situation, etc. So that’s how I got myself recruited on the graduate course sponsored by the United Nations in the late 1970s, when China started to reform and open up. I was employed by the UN in the early 1980s as a translator in its New York headquarters. That was my first trip abroad.


鲍尔森:有趣的是,我所尊敬的人在各行各业有不少,但他们都有一个共同点,那就是求知欲。正是求知欲和真正的勇气促使人们走出国门、体验不同文化。我2009年离开财政部时,开始撰写《峭壁边缘:拯救世界金融之路》这本书,在约翰斯·霍普金斯大学高级国际问题研究院待了1年时间。这也是你曾经学习并获得优异成绩的地方。这段经历是如何影响你对美国看法的?

Secretary Paulson: It’s interesting because so many people that I respect in various professions share one thing in common, that’s intellectual curiosity, because it takes intellectual curiosity and real courage to travel abroad and experience different cultures. When I left the Treasury in 2009 to begin working on my book On the Brink: Inside the Race to Stop the Collapse of the Global Financial System, I spent a year at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS). And I see that’s where you spent your time when you were a scholar. You got an advanced degree there. How did that experience impact your views of America?


崔大使:对我而言,那是一段独特的经历。我至今对约翰斯·霍普金斯大学和我的美国教授们心怀感激。在此之前,我已在联合国工作过几年时间。但这两段经历很不一样。作为学生,我可以更近距离地接触美国人民和社会,还有机会更系统地学习美国国情、外交政策特别是对华政策,我也学了一些经济学课程,这对我整个外交生涯都十分有益。当然,我后来也发现有些课堂上学的知识未必能用到社会实践中。

Ambassador Cui: That was very unique experience for me. I’m still very grateful to SAIS, to the Johns Hopkins and to my American professors there. Before I went to SAIS, I had already spent a few years working for the UN in New York. But that’s different. Being a student, you get closer to the American people and society. Besides, that gave me the opportunity to have more systematic study of America as a country, of American foreign policy, especially its policy towards China. I think that is extremely helpful for me and for my entire career. I also took some of the economic courses. Later on I found out many of the things you learned in the classroom might not apply in real society.


鲍尔森:你说得太对了。目前,美中关系处于低点。在美国国会共和、民主两党提出的四百多项议案正在挑战中国,这种对华强硬政策得到两党一致支持。中国的经济实力日益增长,自然带来地缘政治上的雄心。从某种程度上讲,美中关系的变化是必然的。坦率地讲,我认为中方所作所为在某种程度上导致了这些变化。长期以来,我一直说中国需要进一步扩大开放,更快地适应来自外国企业的竞争,更好地保护知识产权。我们还应共同应对挑战,引领国际治理体系改革,使之在当今世界更为有效。我们双方还面临一系列棘手的战略安全和政治热点等分歧,如台湾、香港、南海、科技等问题。我们过去已就此讨论很多,今天不讨论这些具体问题,最好把时间用到展望未来上。我想问一个基本的问题,中方对构建美中建设性关系的目标和优先事项是什么?

Secretary Paulson: Yeah, how true that is. So now for the present, relations are at the low point between our two countries. You are right there in Washington, so you see it. With over 400 pieces of legislation in the US Congress aimed at challenging China, introduced by both Republicans and Democrats, this more aggressive approach to China has bipartisan support. In some ways, the change in the relationship was inevitable. Because China’s economic strength is growing, it is naturally followed by geopolitical ambitions. Let me be candid, though, I also believe China brought some of these on itself in some ways. For a long time, I’ve consistently said China needs to open to a greater extent and much more quickly to the competition from foreign companies. It needs to better protect intellectual property. And together we should step up to the challenge to lead the effort to reform and update international governing institutions so that they work in today’s world. We have a number of difficult and seemingly intractable strategic security and political flashpoints dividing us, Taiwan, Hong Kong, South China Sea, technology issues, on and on. You and I have talked about a lot of these in the past. But rather than debating these points today, I believe our time together would be best spent looking to the future. So I’m going to start by asking you a basic question, what are China’s objectives and priorities in establishing a productive relationship with the United States?


崔大使:中国外交政策是基于自身国家利益而制定的,在当今世界通过发展同各国关系来维护和促进国家利益、满足人民需要。在此背景下,中国对美政策是明确、一致、连贯的。如你所说,去年是中美建交40周年,明年是基辛格博士秘密访华50周年。我们可以清晰地看到,中国自始至终希望同美方发展建设性合作关系,而非对抗关系,希望双边关系建立在相互尊重、相互理解、照顾彼此关切、互利互惠的基础之上。这就是自尼克松总统和基辛格博士访华以来中美关系的本质,从未发生根本改变。同时,中美关系也发生了很大变化,变得更丰富、更深入、更复杂、更全面。双方在很多早年难以想象的领域开展了合作。比如,你任财长期间中美共同倡导了二十国集团的进程,以有效应对国际金融危机,这在尼克松时代是不可想象的。我们还共同应对气候变化、打击恐怖主义、抗击埃博拉病毒等传染病。在抗击新冠肺炎疫情方面,中美两国省州和城市之间、企业之间、机构之间也开展了良好合作。总之,我们之间已开拓了越来越多的合作领域,同时以建设性方式妥善处理分歧。实事求是地讲,中美之间的一些分歧将长期存在。我们必须承认,由于历史文化传统、政治和经济制度等差异,中美之间难免存在分歧。但我们必须以建设性方式妥善处理这些分歧。我们必须始终牢记,中美共同利益远大于分歧。中美两国面临诸多全球性挑战,无论是气候变化还是传染病、自然灾害,中美均无法独力应对。在应对全球性挑战方面,中美应携手合作而不是相互对抗,这是国际社会的普遍期待,也是两国最大的共同利益。

Ambassador Cui: Our foreign policy is very much based on our perception of our national interests, how to advance and promote our national interests in today’s world and how to manage our relations with other countries for the national interests or what is needed by our people. So in this sense, there is a clear continuity and consistency in China’s policy toward the United States. As you said, last year we celebrated the 40th anniversary of our diplomatic relations, and next year we will commemorate the 50th anniversary of Dr. Henry Kissinger’s first visit to China. It has been clear from the very beginning that we want to have a constructive and cooperative rather than confrontational relationship with the United States. We want to base ourselves on mutual respect, mutual understanding, and hopefully mutual accommodation with the aim of mutual benefit. That has been the essence of our policy all along, ever since President Nixon and Dr. Kissinger visited China. I don’t think there is a fundamental change with regard to this basic approach. But at the same time, our relations have changed a great deal. It has expanded, it has deepened, and it has gotten more complicated, more comprehensive and more complex. We have opened up many new areas for cooperation, areas which we may not have imagined about early on. For instance, Mr. Secretary, you and your Chinese counterpart initiated the G20 process in response to the global financial crisis. That was the kind of cooperation people had hardly imagined about during the Nixon and Kissinger years. We also handled issues like climate change, international terrorism and epidemics like Ebola in Africa. Even for this current pandemic, there has been a good degree of cooperation between China’s provinces and cities and American states and cities, between companies and institutions of the two countries. So we have opened up many areas for cooperation, and we have also handled the differences in a constructive and pragmatic way. To be fair, some of the differences will remain with us for many years to come. We have to recognize that there will always be differences between us because we are two different countries with very different historical heritages, different cultures, and different political and economic systems. But we have to manage the differences in a constructive way. We have to keep in mind that our common interests and mutual needs always outweigh whatever differences we have. We are faced with so many global challenges. Neither China nor the United States can handle them all by itself, whether the pandemic or climate change or natural disasters. It is the expectation of the international community that China and the United States should work with each other, not against each other, on these global challenges. This is the larger common interest.


坦率地讲,我们之间有很多分歧,包括你刚才提到的台湾、涉港、涉疆、南海等问题,如果大家看看地图,就会发现这些问题要么涉及中国领土,要么处于中国周边,没有一个靠近美国,更不在美国领土范围之内。对中方而言,这些问题事关中国主权、领土完整和国家统一。有时我们觉得不可思议,为什么这些问题会成为中美之间的问题?因为这些问题明明都是中国的内政。在中国人民实现现代化目标进程中,我们必须解决领土完整和国家统一问题,这都是中国自己的事情。正如我刚才所言,中美关系确实复杂,有时在一些问题上存在分歧。幸运的是,我们双方长期以来很好地管控了分歧。但当前形势令人担忧甚至警惕,美国一些人试图突破“红线”,这将带来严重后果。我希望人们能从过去几十年的历史中吸取经验和教训。

As for our differences, I have to be very frank that many issues, including those you just mentioned, such as the situation across the Taiwan Strait, Xinjiang, Hong Kong and the South China sea, if we look at the map, they are either part of the Chinese territory or very close to China. None of them is close to the United States. Certainly none of them is part of the US territory. So for us, it’s a matter of sovereignty, territorial integrity and national unity. Sometimes we just don’t believe why these issues should become issues between our two countries. They are internal issues for China. As the Chinese nation strives to achieve modernization, we have to solve the issues concerning our sovereignty and territorial integrity in the process. They are our own affairs. But as I said, we do have a very complex relationship. Sometimes we have disputes over these issues. Fortunately, so far we have managed them quite well. But now the current situation is making us very concerned and even alarmed. There are some clear attempts in this country to cross what people call the red line with very serious consequences. So I hope people can really draw experience and good lessons from the past few decades.


鲍尔森:大使先生,感谢你全面的回答。我想谈两点,一是你刚才谈到的香港以及其他涉及主权的问题,美国国内对此存在各种不同看法。美方理解中国对香港拥有主权,但往往会说中方是否违反了所签署的协议?美中两国存在的分歧确实很难消除,当前重要的是你们和美方官员和高层保持经常性对话,因为当前美中关系处于非常困难的时期,有些问题如你所说很难解决。二是你刚才所谈让我想起2008年国际金融危机期间的情形,那种情况在二三十年前是不可想象的。我曾说过,如果美中没有建设性关系、我没有及时同中方同事通上电话,世界将大为不同。危机期间的协调合作至关重要。金融危机后,美中两国和其他主要经济体成立二十国集团,中方实施的大规模财政刺激计划发挥重要作用,帮助世界经济走出衰退。这成为美中合作的成功范例。

Secretary Paulson: Mr. Ambassador, thank you very much for that comprehensive answer. Two things I would say, when you talk about areas in your region, like Hong Kong and sovereignty, one of the things that tend to divide us is that Americans understand the Chinese sovereignty, for instance, in Hong Kong, but the US side tends to look at it and say, has China breached the agreement they had made? So there are still differences that are not going to be easy to iron out. I think the thing that’s important is that the dialogue you and your counterparts have regularly with the top people in the United States. Because I think this is just a very difficult time. And some of these issues, as you say, are intractable and not easy to solve. You mentioned one thing which really resonated with me, something that would have been unimaginable 20 or 30 years ago, that was during the financial crisis. I’ve said the world would have been a very different spot if we hadn’t built the constructive relationship, if I hadn’t been able to get my counterpart, at the time Vice Premier and now Vice President Wang Qishan, on the phone on very short notice. The coordination and cooperation there during the time of panic was extremely important. And then the G20, after the financial crisis, the way our two countries came together with other leading nations, and the big role that China played with the fiscal stimulus program helping to lift the whole world out of that recession, so that was a really good example of cooperation.


接下来我想谈谈中国经济。中国率先控制住疫情,实现经济快速复苏。近日,习近平主席宣布了聚焦刺激国内消费的“内循环发展模式”。很多美国人都在问,中方这种强调经济自力更生的理念是否可能意味着要与全球经济脱节?从某种程度上讲,这是否意味着中国将改变过去40多年的改革开放政策?

I’d like to move to the Chinese economy. I have a question for you there. Your country appears to be rebounding pretty quickly in economy after you brought the pandemic under control. And President Xi Jinping has announced to focus on stimulating domestic consumption, the so-called internal circulation model. One question that a number of people in the United States are asking, with the emphasis on economic self-reliance, which probably means de-linking, at least more de-linking from the global economy, to what extent does that represent a change from the message, which has been constant over the last 40 years, about opening-up?


崔大使:当前形势下,世界各国当务之急是克服新冠肺炎疫情所带来的困难,并且尽快重启和恢复经济。中方积极致力于此。截至目前,我们已经有了一些好消息,中国经济增长正在恢复。同时,我们认为要化危为机,通过加快和深化发展模式转变,致力于实现经济从高速增长向高质量发展转变,更加有效保护环境和推进减贫工作。我们当前所做工作都是恢复经济增长、实现经济稳定和可持续发展的重要一环。明年,中国将开启国民经济和社会发展的第十四个五年规划。我们的工作重点是清晰的,那就是推动形成以国内大循环为主体、国内国际双循环相互促进的新发展格局。这并不意味着中方将关闭开放的大门,也不是封闭的国内单循环。实际上,中国对外开放水平将会越来越高。关于自力更生,这一理念始终贯穿于新中国成立70多年、改革开放40多年的发展历程。在这方面,有人说中国之所以能够成为世界第二大经济体,是靠占他国便宜、窃取他国技术来实现的。这种说法对中国人民很不公平。你很了解中国和中国人民,中国人民勤劳且富有创新精神。我们明白,作为拥有14亿人口的大国,中国必须自力更生,否则不可能实现发展。中国始终有自力更生精神,这并不意味着中国将闭关锁国。中国开放的大门只会越开越大,因为双循环发展格局真正目标是充分发挥国内市场潜力,让市场经济运行得更加高效。因此,国内循环和国际循环是相互促进的关系。实际上,包括美国企业在内的外国企业在华经营多年,早已成为中国国内循环和市场的一部分。通过聚焦国内循环和市场,他们将在中国拥有更加广阔的发展前景。同时,外国企业也是连接国内循环和国际循环的天然纽带,将迎来更多发展机遇。我希望他们能抓住这些机遇。

Ambassador Cui: Under the current circumstances, the priority is to overcome the difficulties brought by the pandemic to restore and reopen the economy. We are working very hard on that. So far we have had some good news. The Chinese economic growth is coming back. At the same time, we believe we should always try to turn challenges into opportunities and to speed up and deepen the transformation of China’s economic development model, to aim at high-quality development, instead of high growth rate, to protect the environment more effectively, and to eliminate absolute poverty in the process. We are doing all these as part of our efforts to restore economic growth and to have more stable and sustained economic development. Now we are preparing for the 14th Five-Year Plan, which will start next year. The emphasis is very clear. As you said, we would like to have this new development pattern with both the internal and external cycles reinforcing each other and with the internal one as the mainstay. But this does not mean we will close our doors. It does not mean we will have a closed internal loop. Actually, we will open up even wider in the process. As for the concept of self-reliance, there has always been self-reliance throughout the 70 years and more since the People’s Republic was founded in 1949, including the four decades of reform and opening-up. In this regard, it’s extremely unfair to say that China has become the second largest economy in the world just by taking advantage of others or even by stealing things from others. This is extremely unfair for the Chinese people. You know China and Chinese so well. We have very hard-working people, very creative people. And we understand, for such a big country, for 1.4 billion people, you must have the spirit of self-reliance to develop. Otherwise, you cannot have achieved development. The self-reliance is always there, but it’s not to close the doors. We will open our door even wider because our real aim is to give full play to the potential of the domestic market, to make the domestic market function more effectively and much better, so that the two cycles could really reinforce each other. Actually, for many foreign companies, including American ones, they are already operating in China. They are already part of this domestic cycle or domestic market. With great emphasis on the internal market forces, they will have better prospects to develop, to grow their operation in China. At the same time, they are the natural link between the internal cycle and the external cycle. So that would mean great opportunity for them. I hope they will seize the opportunities.


鲍尔森:你所谈让我回想起2006—2008年我任美国财长的那段时光,我们双方成立了美中战略经济对话机制,当时我们(在经济轨)集中讨论两个问题,一个是汇率改革问题,希望人民币汇率未来不被低估且更能反映市场供求,第二个是中国经济再平衡问题。当时中国产能过剩且储蓄多、消费少,消费仅占中国经济的10%。我们当时鼓励中方减少生产、刺激消费。时至今天,这两个问题都取得重要进展,我认为这是值得一提的。

Secretary Paulson: As I listened to you, I thought back to 2006 to 2008, when I was Treasury Secretary and we set up the Strategic Economic Dialogue. The two major issues which were focused on there was currency reform, the idea of having China move toward having a currency that wasn’t undervalued and was more reflective of market forces, and a rebalancing economically, because in those days, China produced much more than it consumed, saved much more than it spent. And that consumption-production imbalance was about 10% of China’s economy. We were encouraging China, pushing China to reduce that and to start consuming more. It’s interesting that today progress has been made in both of those. So I think that’s worth pointing out.


现在我们谈下国际协调与合作的问题。国际社会未能在应对新冠肺炎疫情上开展合作是个重大遗憾。有人认为,我们如不能在疫情上开展合作,还能在哪些领域开展合作呢?当前,世界各国在最需要合作的时候却越来越缺乏集体行动的能力,无论是应对疫情、推动经济复苏、解决贸易问题,还是应对气候变化、防止核扩散。我想再次展望未来,请问中方是否愿推动解决上述问题,为推动世贸组织等国际治理体系改革而作出努力?

I’d like to now move to international coordination and cooperation. The failure to work together on the pandemic has been a huge miss. And some people say, if we can’t work together and cooperate on that, what can we cooperate on? But today the world generally seems to lack an ability to have collected action at a time when it’s most needed, whether on the pandemic response, the economic recovery, trade, or issues like climate change or nuclear proliferation. So I’d like to, again, look a bit to the future and say, what is China willing to do to be part of the solution to achieve progress on these common goals or in support of reforming existing institutions, such as the World Trade Organization?


崔大使:很显然,我们需要在各个领域推进国际治理。在21世纪的前20年,我们至少经历了三场国际危机:“9·11”恐袭事件、2008年国际金融危机和现在的新冠肺炎疫情。这些都是全球性挑战,没有哪个可以用传统意义的大国竞争“工具箱”予以解决。相反,上述挑战都在提醒我们,需要推进全球治理,加强国际合作。中方积极支持所有加强国际治理体系应对能力和有效性的努力,不仅为应对当前挑战,而且要防范未来新的挑战,中国愿为此贡献力量。这需要所有国家的共同参与和积极贡献,特别是中美这样大国的参与。中美两国对世界负有共同责任,那就是应带头开展合作,共同发起、支持和促进国际合作,积极应对所有挑战。当然,国际治理体系改革要考虑到所有成员国的实际需求和真实想法。我真诚希望我们能在应对疫情方面做得更好。我们需要携手合作。正如你所说,展望未来,后疫情时代将是什么样子的?需要我们做什么、开展哪些合作?我们需要向前看,提早规划,始终坚持合作理念,而不是对抗思维。

Ambassador Cui: There is a clear need to enhance global governance in all these areas. You see, in the first two decades of the 21st century, we have had at least three major international crises, the 9/11 terrorist attack, the financial crisis, and now the pandemic. These are all global challenges, global issues. But none of them could be solved with the traditional toolbox of great-power competition. All of them have reminded us we have to enhance global governance for better international cooperation. So China is ready to support and contribute to the joint efforts to make global governance more responsive, more effective, and help all of us to deal with not only the current challenges, but also upcoming challenges in the years to come. Better global governance system will certainly require the participation and contribution of all countries, particularly major countries like China and the United States. It’s our shared responsibility to the world to take the lead in cooperating with each other in initiating, supporting and contributing to international cooperation to deal with all these challenges. Of course this governance system has to take into account the needs and aspirations of all the members. I really hope that we could do a much better job in handling the current pandemic. And we should really work together. As you said, looking to the future, what would the post-pandemic world be like? What would it need from us and from our cooperation? We have to look to the future and plan ahead. We have to work with each other instead of against each other.


鲍尔森:你说得很好,如果我们做不到这些,世界将变成一个困难和危险重重的地方。如果我们真的关心国际秩序、和平与稳定,我们还有很多工作要做。接下来我们要谈到贸易和科技“脱钩”问题,这是个很棘手的问题。当前已经出现美中贸易和资金往来“脱钩”所带来的显著压力。毫无疑问,这种情况还将继续在一定程度和范围内存在。问题是,这种情况将发展到什么程度?我想提一个棘手的问题,你如何看待美国高科技企业对中国市场开放空间十分有限而感到沮丧的问题?

Secretary Paulson: It is well said, because the world’s going to be a very difficult and dangerous place if we can’t do this. If we care about peace, stability and order, there’s a lot of work to be done. I’d like to move to trade and tech decoupling and talk about this issue, because it’s a hot-button issue. There’s real pressure for significantly decoupling in trade and capital flows between the US and China. So there’s no doubt that’s going to happen to some extent. The question is, to what extent, how far is this going to go? Let me start the discussion by asking a tougher question. What do you say to Americans who were frustrated with how little China’s opened up to our tech companies?


崔大使:过去四十多年来,中国积极实行改革开放,这是中方的基本国策,没有改变也不会改变。即使在遭受疫情严重冲击情况下,中方在过去几个月里出台了一系列改革开放新举措。例如,《外商投资法》于今年1月1日正式实施,进一步增强了外资企业在华发展的预期和信心,中国依然吸引了大量外资。今年6月,中国颁布了2020年版外商投资准入负面清单和自贸区负面清单,而且清单越来越短。6月,中方还发布《海南自由贸易港建设总体方案》,首次在官方文件中提出零关税、零壁垒目标。总之,中方正竭尽全力深化改革、扩大开放,绝不会放弃。对于包括美国企业在内的外国企业而言,这将给他们带来更多市场准入、更好发展机遇和可预测性。然而,真正的挑战是,在中国坚持提高开放水平的时候,有些国家却在想方设法设置障碍,他们针对TikTok(抖音国际版)、Wechat(微信国际版)、华为等设置各种壁垒。这才是我们的真正挑战。在我们开门迎客时,他们却在筑墙挡人。我们应该怎么办呢?

Ambassador Cui: For the last four decades, China has implemented the policy of reform and opening-up, and it remains a basic state policy. It will not change. Even at the time of the global pandemic, we have initiated new measures for reform and opening-up in the last few months. For instance, the new Foreign Investment Law took effect on January 1 this year. There is certainly better predictability for foreign investors, who will have better confidence in China. China still attracts a lot of foreign investment. Last June, just several months ago, we announced the 2020 version of the negative list for the access of foreign investment and the negative list for pilot free trade zones, and the negative lists are getting shorter and shorter. Also last June, we started the master plan for the development of Hainan Free Trade Port. It’s the first time in an official Chinese government document that the idea of “zero tariff” and “zero barrier” is used. So we’re still making our best efforts to have further reform and opening-up. We will not give up. For American companies and other foreign companies operating in China, there will be better access, better opportunities and certainly greater predictability. But at the same time, what is very challenging for us is that while we are trying to be more open to the rest of the world, some people in other parts of the world are trying to raise barriers to us. They are raising barriers for TikTok, Wechat and Huawei, etc. This is a real challenge for us. We are trying to open our door wider, but they are building walls. They’re raising barriers. What should we do?


鲍尔森:科技应该是美中之间最麻烦的领域。经贸关系本来可以缓解美中之间的安全竞争关系,但现实是安全竞争扩散到经贸领域,科技成为焦点。问题是我们在国家安全问题上还会走多远。这是最困难的问题。为了让问题变得更加容易解决,对于美方最具竞争力的能源、农业、金融等行业,中方是否会继续对美开放市场?

Secretary Paulson: I think this is the most difficult area, technology. What has essentially happened is that there used to be economic linkages between our two countries that would mitigate security competition. But as you and I have talked about, security competition has played over to the economic side, and technology is the focus. So the question is about national security and how far we go. And that is the most difficult issue. To get to an issue that is easier, which is, will China’s market continue to open further for US companies in areas where the US is most competitive, such as energy and agriculture and finance?


崔大使:答案是肯定的。实际上,近年来中方在金融领域出台一系列开放新举措,包括取消外资在金融服务业投资的相关限制等。对于很多美高科技企业而言,他们都在增加在华投资和运营规模。特斯拉在华设厂就是一个很好的例子。他们看到了中国市场潜力,希望成为中国经济增长的一部分,希望成为中国经济的参与者、贡献者和受益者。中方对此表示欢迎,并为外国企业提供更好投资环境、法律制度。关于国家安全问题,任何国家都会有国家安全问题,这并非新问题。很多人一直关心国家安全问题,这个问题不是突然冒出来的。回顾过去四五十年历史,中美双方在深化和拓展双边关系的同时都妥善处理了国家安全问题。我不认为中美双方的国家安全利益因双边关系发展而受损。实际上,发展双边关系有利于国家安全。如果彼此交流越来越多,双方就能更好相互理解,知道对方是如何思考的、对方的思维方式以及对方优势和弱项。这样你才知道同对方如何打交道、如何降低风险、如何促进互惠合作。这应是我们从过去四、五十年历史吸取的宝贵经验,为什么要改变它呢?

Ambassador Cui: The answer is certainly yes. Actually, we have opened our financial sector more in the last couple of years. We have removed some of the restrictions on foreign investment in the financial sector. For many very good high-tech American companies, they’re increasing their investment or their operation in China. Companies like Tesla are a good example because they see the market potential. They want to be part of China’s economic growth. They want to contribute to it and they certainly want to benefit from it. So we welcome them all and will create much better environment for foreign investment, better rule of law, etc. As for national security, naturally, there have always been concerns of national security for all countries all along. This is not a new issue. This does not come up all of a sudden. Huge numbers of people are always worried about national security. But look at the history of the past 40 years or 50 years. Both China and the United States took good care of national security while we developed mutual ties, deepened and widened our relations. I don’t think the national security of either China or United States was hurt in the process. Actually, it was helped. If you have more interaction with each other, you know better the other side. You know how the guys on the other side think, their mind-set, their strengths and weaknesses, and you know much better how to deal with them, how to avoid the risks, how to promote mutually beneficial cooperation. This is the experience we have learned over the last 40 or 50 years. Why should we change it?


鲍尔森:你的回答非常睿智。显然,中国发生很大变化,美国和世界也发生了变化,新的国际安全问题不断涌现。但问题的关键是理解和对话,弄清楚哪些方面能达成共识,哪些方面存在分歧,哪些地方存在潜在冲突,如何有效避免冲突,防止局势失控,我认为这些问题特别重要。你担任中国驻美大使已7年多时间,见证了很多事情,包括美中共同推动达成应对气候变化的《巴黎协定》、奥巴马政府过渡到特朗普政府、美中元首海湖庄园会晤、艰苦的美中经贸谈判等。我曾看到你在椭圆形办公室同特朗普总统、刘鹤副总理站在一起,也看到当前双边关系恶化的危险态势。回顾7年任期,你最大的遗憾是什么?

Secretary Paulson: I think you said something that is very wise here, that obviously China has changed dramatically, the US has changed, the world’s changed. There are new national security issues. But the key thing is understanding and talking, talking about areas where we agree, where there are differences, where there’s potential conflict and how to avoid conflict from spinning out of control. I think that’s what’s really important. You’ve been in the US now for over seven years. You’ve seen a lot. You were here for the US-China agreement on climate change preceding the Paris Agreement, the transition from the Obama administration to the Trump administration, the meeting with President Trump and President Xi at Mar-a-lago, the long and arduous trade negotiations. I saw you right there in the Oval Office with Vice Premier Liu He and President Trump, and today’s dangerous decline in relations between our two countries. Looking back, what is your biggest regret over the last seven years or so?


崔大使:关于国家安全问题,我想补充一点,每个国家关心自身国家安全合情合理,但我们要小心不要被毫无根据的恐惧、猜疑、仇恨等情绪所误导、蒙蔽,甚至落入陷阱。如果这样的话,每个人都不会感到安全,这与维护国家安全的初衷背道而驰。关于出任驻美大使7年之久的经历,我必须承认到任时并未想到会干这么长时间。当前中美关系处于关键时刻,我为能继续服务中美关系而深感荣幸。这很可能是我外交生涯最后一任常驻,然而当前中美关系面临巨大挑战。我为能在此继续履行使命、应对挑战而深感荣幸。我将全力以赴,不负祖国和人民重托,也不辜负美各界朋友的期望。我愿同美各界人士共同努力,推动中美关系早日重回正轨。

Ambassador Cui: Mr. Secretary, maybe first one more word about the national security issue. The national security concerns, generally speaking, are legitimate concerns for all countries. But we have to be careful not to be misled, not to be blinded, certainly not to be trapped by groundless fear, suspicion and even hatred. I don’t think that will make anybody safe. That will make everybody less secure. This is just against the need for national security. Then about my experience as Ambassador here for more than seven years. Honestly, I have to confess, when I first came here, I didn’t expect I would stay here for so long. I do feel grateful that I’m doing this job at this critical moment for both our countries. This is most probably my last posting abroad in my diplomatic career. The relations between the two countries are faced with such tremendous challenges. I’m grateful I’ve been given this opportunity to do this job here, to meet the challenges. This is my dedication to my country and my people, and this is what I owe to all my American friends. I have to work with all of you to make sure that our relationship will come back on the right track. It will move forward. It will be stabilized, especially in the next few months, and with more efforts, we can open up new opportunities for further cooperation.


鲍尔森:回顾这段经历,你最满意的是什么?

Secretary Paulson: So I know you never look to personalize things. But if you think back, what were you most pleased to be part of?


崔大使:我认为我有幸见证了这么多历史时刻。我参与了几乎所有中美两国元首的会晤,包括习主席和奥巴马总统的会晤、习主席和特朗普总统的会晤,亲身感受到中美两国元首是如何互动交流的、双方共识是如何引领中美关系向前发展的。正如我们常说的,总要对自己提出更高目标、设定更高标准。我将继续尽己所能做好这些事情。

Ambassador Cui: I’m lucky to witness so many historic moments. I’ve been present at almost all the meetings between our two presidents, including the meetings between President Xi and President Obama, and the meetings between President Xi and President Trump. I have firsthand knowledge about how the Presidents interacted with each other and how their agreement has guided our relations forward. As we say, you should always aim at something better. You should always have a higher standard for yourself to reach. I’ll try to do that.


鲍尔森:展望未来,美中关系是否有什么问题让你辗转反侧、难以入眠?你认为未来美中两国最大风险和最大机遇是什么?

Secretary Paulson: So looking ahead, what keeps you up at night if you look to the future, what you see as the biggest risks in the relationship between our two countries? And then I’m going to ask you after that, on the positive note, what you see as the biggest opportunities?


崔大使:我现在入睡前经常问自己,二三十年后的历史学家将如何评判我们?我们是否做出了正确的选择、是否为中美关系发展而不遗余力?我经常拿这些问题问自己。展望未来,我们面临着强化中美合作、构建更加强劲双边关系的巨大机遇。首先是要合作抗击疫情,合作研发疫苗和治疗药物,努力拯救生命,保障民生和就业,恢复经济增长,恢复世人对未来经济发展前景的信心。其次,双方还要恢复在气候变化等全球性挑战和朝核、伊朗核等地区热点问题上的协调与合作。只要双方有足够的政治意愿,中美合作就大有可为。

Ambassador Cui: Nowadays I very often ask myself before I fall asleep at night, how will the future historians judge us 20 years and 30 years from now? Will they say we have made the right choice, that we have done our best for the relations for the two countries? I’m asking this question to myself very often now. Going forward there are clear, new opportunities for our two countries to strengthen our cooperation, to build a stronger relationship between us. One of these opportunities is the cooperation to deal with the current pandemic, to develop treatment, cures, possible vaccines, to save life, to protect people’s livelihood, to protect jobs, to restart economic growth, and to give people better confidence in the economic prospects. We should also resume and strengthen our cooperation on issues like climate change, and even on some of the international hotspot issues or conflicts, like the Korean Peninsula nuclear issue, the Iranian nuclear issue. There are so many of them. If there is sufficient political will for cooperation, certainly the opportunities are there.


鲍尔森:你说的很对,这确实需要我们有足够的政治意愿。感谢崔大使接受此次访谈。我想告诉你,十分感谢你在如此困难且重要的时刻在这个国家坚守岗位,也感谢你今天所分享的一切。

Secretary Paulson: All, you’re right, comes down to political will. Mr. Ambassador, thank you for being with us today. I’ll now let you get back to your critically important job. I can tell you, I’m very grateful that you’re here in this country during this very important and difficult time. So thank you for being with us today.


崔大使:感谢财长先生所给予的访谈机会。

Ambassador Cui: Thank you for giving me the opportunity.