驻英国使馆临时代办陈雯接受英国广播公司“午间世界新闻”栏目采访
Charge d’Affaires a.i. Chen Wen’s Interview on World at One of BBC Radio 4
2019年5月25日
25 May 2019
主持人：首先对于是否允许中国企业参与英国5G（第五代移动通信）网络建设，英国政府不久将做出决定。批评人士称，中国2017年通过了《国家情报法》，要求中国企业必须支持、配合国家情报安全部门工作。美国总统特朗普出于网络安全原因，发布国家紧急状态命令，将华为列入“黑名单”。对此你怎么看？
Montague: First about the decision expected soon from the British Government on whether the Chinese company Huawei can be involved in developing the fifth generation of mobile broadband here. Critics point to China’s National Intelligence Law that was passed in 2017, that says organizations must support, cooperate with and collaborate in national intelligence work. President Trump called a national emergency over cyber security that has put Huawei on a “blacklist”.
陈代办：我们的立场非常明确，中国政府绝不会要求华为安装所谓“后门”。
Chen: I think the stand has been made very clear, that Huawei would not be asked by the Chinese government to provide any “backdoor” to China. It’s very clear.
主持人：今后不会，以前也没有？
Montague: It would not; it has never been and would never be asked?
陈代办：从来没有，今后也不会。这是肯定的。
Chen: It has never been asked and would never be asked. That is very clear.
主持人：中国的法律不会裁定此立场无效吗？中国有关法律要求中国企业配合国家安全部门。
Montague: That’s understood. But would not the Chinese law overrule that, if there is a law that requires companies to help with national security?
陈代办：中国不会像某些国家那样在别国领土上搞“长臂管辖”。我不点名，你也知道我说的是哪个国家。
Chen: It is not China who has this long armed jurisdiction on other countries’ soil. You know which country I am referring to.
主持人：美国。
Montague: The United States.
陈代办：是的。
Chen: Right. You said that.
主持人：如果英国政府决定不允许华为参与英国5G网络建设，那么华为对英国的“信任投票”，也就是对英国的投资会发生怎样的变化？
Montague: If the United Kingdom decided not to use Huawei in the development of the 5G network here, what would happen to that vote of confidence, the investment in the UK economy?
陈代办：你认为这种决定会向其他投资者，向中国企业，发出什么样的信号？如果那样，英国还是开放的国度吗？还欢迎外国投资吗？
Chen: What kind of signals, do you think; this kind of gesture would send out to other investors and other Chinese companies? Is UK still open and still extending a welcoming arm to other Chinese investors?
主持人：如果发生这种情况，影响有多大？
Montague: So it would have repercussions on direct investment? Of what order, of what scale?
陈代办：目前无法预计，但我认为影响会很大。
Chen: Well, it is hard to predict at the moment. But I think it is going to be quite substantial.
主持人：影响会以10亿计？
Montague: Running into the billions?
陈代办：具体数字很难预计。但有一点是肯定的，这不是一个积极的信号。
Chen: I don’t have the figure. I cannot imagine the figure. But definitely the message is not going to be very positive.
主持人：你认为信号已经发出了吗？
Montague: Do you think that message is already going out?
陈代办：我们已经看到了一些谨慎行动。我们当然希望英国政府独立作出符合自身国家利益的决定。
Chen: We have witnessed some cautious moves. We certainly hope, as I said, that the UK government will make the decision independently based on its own national interests.
主持人：美国政府出于国家安全利益，将华为列入出口管制名单，要求美国企业同华为合作前必须得到许可，导致谷歌和英国芯片制造商ARM等公司停止与华为的业务往来。你对此怎么看？
Montague: Now, the United States has decided that it is in its national interest to put the Chinese company Huawei on a banned list that you require a license if you want to do business with, which of course has prompted Google and ARM, the silicon chip maker British company, to stop doing business with it. How do you respond to that decision?
陈代办：这完全是倒行逆施，不符合“合作双赢”的时代潮流，我们处在一个相互依存的世界。
Chen: I think, definitely, it does not conform to the trend of the times, which is “win-win” cooperation, because we are living in a mutually dependent world.
主持人：但是，有些公司声称，他们遭到了来自中国的间谍监视和工业窃密活动侵扰。
Montague: I want to ask you about the question of espionage, because the argument that people have experienced this is based on the fact that there have been charges of industrial espionage leveled at Chinese individuals for their various involvement on line.
陈代办：首先，泛安全化是危险的。如果深入研究一下，这种思维是出于对中国发展的恐惧，是对中国政策和主张的误解，有的甚至“歇斯底里”。其次，如果你说的事有确凿证据，那么中国是一个法治国家，一定会依法查处。
Chen: First of all, it is dangerous to securitize everything. This kind of mentality in the end, if you dig deeper, is a fear of China’s rise. It is a misunderstanding of China’s policies and intention. I think it is a little bit “hysteria”. China is a country of rule of law.
主持人：有人抱怨美国政府越来越倾向保护主义，但也有人认为竞争应该更公平。中国加入世贸组织以来，获利最多，但这对其他国家不公平。你认为这种看法有道理吗？
Montague: You know that there are doubts. There are doubts not just from the America. They are from the others. Let’s take the question of trade. It is over the approach of China thus far. There are many people who support what President Trump is doing on trade. They perhaps don’t like the idea of heading towards a more protectionist world, but they do think that the playing field should be more level, that actually, China since joining the WTO, has really had the best of it, and it isn’t fair on others. Do you accept that there might be something in that?
陈代办：中国加入世贸后严格履行了自己的义务，兑现自己加入世贸组织的承诺。目前中美经贸摩擦经过11轮谈判，还未达成协议，责任不在中国，而在美方。我认为，把责任归咎于中国，是徒劳无益的。
Chen: China has had a very good record in implementing all its WTO commitments. And the reason why eleven rounds trade negotiations have not yielded any positive results, the responsibility doesn’t lie with China. It lies with the US.
主持人：大家都注意到，一些西方企业进入中国，融入当地市场，结果却发现部分西方创造的知识产权被窃取。因此有批评意见认为，中国的“山寨”行为实质上是占西方便宜。对于这样的抱怨，你作何回应？
Montague: So those who say, look, typically what you see happening is you have western companies perhaps go to China, they have to take some Chinese people onto their board if they get access at all to the Chinese market. And then what they may find is that their intellectual property, things that were invented and innovated in the West, is copied. It is a cut-and-paste economy. And then effectively, it is a sort of rip off. What do you say to people who say that about the Chinese approach to doing business?
陈代办：中国是知识产权大国，高度重视知识产权保护。外国企业如有相关投诉，只要证据充分，我相信都会得到及时、依法、公正的处理。
Chen: We have reached a stage of development where we ourselves attach great importance to the protection of IPR. If there is one case that any foreign companies have complains about IPR and they provide sufficient evidence, I am sure it will be dealt with in accordance with law.
主持人：中国被指责对100万维吾尔人实行大规模监禁，联合国一委员会称之为“拘留营”，中方称是“再教育中心”。中方对此有何评论？
Montague: China has been accused of holding more than a million Chinese Muslims, the Uygurs, in what a UN committee called “mass internment camps”, the Chinese call them reeducation centres. What about them?
陈代办：我必须纠正你的说法，这是职业技能教育培训中心。新疆设立职业技能教育培训中心的目的，首先是顺应人民的意愿。上世纪90年代以来，宗教极端势力、暴力恐怖势力、民族分裂势力等“三股势力”在新疆兴风作浪，制造了数千起暴力恐怖纵火杀戮事件，破坏扰乱当地社会秩序，成百上千人因此丧生，其中包括很多公安干警。因此，我们采取的举措是顺应民意的。
Chen: Actually it is called vocational training centre. And the reason why we had this centre is, first of all, to respond to the call of the people. Since the last ten years of the 20th century, Xinjiang has been a victim of extremism, terrorism and separatism. So there were thousands of violent attacks, arsons, sabotage, incidents. As a result, thousands of people’s lives were lost because of that and a lot of police officers lost their lives. The measures that we have taken are in response to people’s call.
主持人：但是有100万穆斯林被拘禁。
Montague: A million people, a million Muslims in what you called the vocational centre.
陈代办：我不知道你从哪里得到这样的数字。
Chen: I don’t know where you get those statistics.
主持人：那你认为在这些中心接受培训的人员规模有多大？
Montague: What numbers?
陈代办：具体数字我不掌握。
Chen: I don’t have the number with me.
主持人：你是否可以了解这一数据。
Montague: What is your understanding of the scale, the numbers of people who are in the centers?
陈代办：我需要核实。我想说的第二点是，这些职业教培中心服务于当地人民，学员在职业技能教培中心可以学习法律，接受美发、餐饮服务等职业技能培训。
Chen: Of course, I can do a research and come back to you on that. Second, I would like to stress that this kind of vocational training centers really serve the people as well. For example, in the centers, they can study law, they can study vocations like hairdressing, to be waitresses, waiters.
主持人：你是说那些学员愿意接受此类培训？
Montague: Are you suggesting that those people want to be there?
陈代办：这些培训有助于脱贫。
Chen: Yes. It helps. It helps poverty alleviation.
陈代办：他们自愿接受培训，因为他们从中受益。对于一个家庭而言，如果有成员接受培训，有助于这个家庭摆脱贫困。
Chen：They go there on voluntary bases, because they have seen the benefits of it. If one person from the family goes into the center, does the training, then the whole family could be lifted out of poverty.
主持人：有人权组织称，这些中心强迫学员学习普通话、效忠习近平主席、批判甚至放弃自己的伊斯兰教信仰。
Montague: So the fact that human rights group say there are people in these camps forced to learn Mandarin Chinese, to swear loyalty to President Xi Jinping, have to criticize or renounce their Muslim faith, is that not true?
陈代办：这与事实不符。首先，百闻不如一见，如果你去这些中心走一走、看一看，你会得出自己的答案。如果你没去过，就不应相信这些虚假信息。现在有很多关于新疆的不实信息。我们欢迎任何不带偏见的人到新疆去访问，去这些中心亲眼看一看学员在那里是如何生活的。
Chen: If you have visited the centre yourself, then you will be able to give me the answer. If you haven’t visited the centre, I am wondering where you collected the information, because there is so much misinformation around the world about Xinjiang at the moment, in many of the reports. We welcome all people without prejudice to visit the centre and see for themselves the life inside the centre.
主持人：这么说我们可以接受当地邀请，去我们自己选择的中心采访？
Montague: So we can take up that invitation, and come and visit the camps that we choose?
陈代办：你们当然可以提出相关申请。
Chen: You can certainly apply.
主持人：在西方有这样一种观点，就是随着中国日益富裕，它将更加倾向走西方民主道路。但现在看来并非如此，你怎么看？
Montague: Your know there was an expectation in the West, perhaps, that as China became richer, that it might be keener on the Western model of democracy. Why do you think that it hasn’t?
陈代办：这取决于你用什么标准去衡量。我们都知道，民主的本质是“人民当家作主”，换句话说，就是在政治决策中反映人民意愿。实现这一目标的途径有很多。例如在中国，我们实行中国人民代表大会和中国人民政治协商会议制度。每年政治生活中的大事就是“两会”，这是中国特色社会主义民主制度。那种认为世界上只有一种“放之四海而皆准”民主制度的观点，本身就是与民主精神背道而驰的。
Chen: It depends on what kind of measures you use. We all know that democracy means the rule of people, or in another way, to reflect people’s will in political decision making. Therefore, there are many ways to achieve that goal, to reflect people’s political will in the decision making process. In China, for example, we have NPC, the National People’s Congress. We have CPPCC, the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference. Annually these are the most important things in China’s political life. So they are in a way China’s form of democracy, what we call the Chinese socialistic democracy. As the only democratic system in the world, Naming, one form of democracy as the only model in the world, is in itself against the spirit of democracy.
主持人：你是说中国和西方一样民主吗？
Montague: Interesting. Would you argue that you are just as democratic as the West?
陈代办：是的。我想强调的是，中国的民主制度与西方不同，它符合中国国情，是中国特色社会主义民主制度。
Chen: Yes, not as the West, but a democratic country in China’s own way with Chinese characteristics.
主持人：谢谢！
Montague: Thank you very much.