驻美国大使崔天凯接受福克斯新闻频道“布雷特·贝尔特别报道”栏目采访

Ambassador Cui Tiankai’s Interview with Fox News’ Bret Baier Special Report

2019年5月22日

22 May 2019

2019年5月21日，驻美国大使崔天凯接受福克斯新闻频道“布雷特·贝尔特别报道”栏目采访。采访实录中译文如下：

On May 21, 2019, Ambassador Cui Tiankai had an interview with the Fox News’s Bret Baier Special Report. The full transcript is as follows:

布雷特·贝尔：刚才约翰提到，美国安全专家坚持认为，如果西方国家使用华为设备，他们将面临着实质上向中方交出关键信息的风险，因为中国将对所有通过华为5G系统的信息进行监控。您对此有何回应？

Bret Baier: Mr. Ambassador, thank you so much. I want to start where John left off about American security experts insisting that if western countries use Huawei equipment, that they are risking essentially handing over the keys that China is going to spy on everything that flows through their 5G systems. What’s your response to that?

崔大使：这些指控毫无根据和证据，具有讽刺意味的是，那些指控别人从事间谍活动的人，自己正是从事间谍工作的。

Ambassador Cui: I think these accusations are without any foundation and evidence. And it’s rather ironic that people who are making these accusations are exactly the group of people having such job descriptions.

布雷特·贝尔：据说华为从中国国家安全委员会、人民解放军以及中国国家情报网络的一个分支机构获取资金，这是否属实？

Bret Baier: You know, is it true or not true that Huawei has received funding from China’s National Security Commission and the People’s Liberation Army and a branch of China’s state intelligence network?

崔大使：正如我刚才所说，相关指责毫无根据。大家都知道，华为只是一家普通的中国私营公司。因此，所有针对华为的行动都是带有政治动机的。我们非常担心这些行动将扰乱正常的贸易和投资往来，破坏人们对市场运作的信心，削弱他们对公平、开放、竞争、企业家精神及法治等价值观的信念，这些价值观过去曾被推崇备至。

Ambassador Cui: Everybody knows Huawei is a privately owned company. It is just a normal Chinese private company. So all these actions taken against Huawei are politically motivated. These accusations are groundless, as I said. And we are very worried such actions will really undermine people’s confidence in the normal function of the market, will disrupt normal flows of trade and investment, and will weaken people’s belief in all the values that people used to preach like fairness, openness, competition, entrepreneurship, rule of law, and so on and so forth.

布雷特·贝尔：我想从华为转到贸易问题，人们对中国在知识产权方面的关切不仅涉及商业领域，而涉及军事领域。联邦调查局局长克里斯托弗·雷（Christopher Wray）在最近的证词中说，“我们的对手比以往任何时候都更关注我国的资产、研发和技术。在情报收集方面，没有任何国家比中国对我们构成的威胁更广泛、更严重。”您对此有何回应？

Bret Baier: I want to move on from Huawei and talk about trade in just a second. But when it comes to intellectual property, the concerns about China’s activities are not only in the business space, but also in the military space. Here’s the FBI director Christopher Wray recently testify about that, “More than ever, the adversaries target our nation’s assets, our research and development, our technology. And no country poses a broader, more severe intelligence collection threat than China.” Your response to that?

崔大使：我不知有些人的记忆为何如此短暂，他们也许还应记得几年前发生的斯诺登泄密事件。

Ambassador Cui: I wonder how people could have such short memories. Perhaps they still remember what happened with the revelation of Edward Snowden just a few years ago.

布雷特·贝尔：您是说美国？

Bret Baier: You’re talking about the US.

崔大使：是的。

Ambassador Cui: Yes.

布雷特·贝尔：那么您对有关中方正积极获取美方军事和商业信息的指控有何回应？

Bret Baier: But your answer to the charge that China is actively trying to get both military and business property？

崔大使：问题在于这些人只是一味指责，从未拿出真正的证据。

Ambassador Cui: The problem is that they never show any real evidence. They just make these accusations.

布雷特·贝尔：让我们谈谈贸易战。《华盛顿邮报》报道称，中方正为长期贸易战做准备。现在各种因素相互交织，您如何看待中美贸易磋商前景？

Bret Baier: Let’s talk about the trade fight, the Washington Post wrote, China prepares for a long trade fight today. Where do you see the prospects? Obviously, all of these are tied together. But where do you see the prospects tonight, for the negotiations between China and the U.S.?

崔大使：我们始终认为：第一，一个好的贸易协定符合中美双方的利益；第二，好的贸易协定应建立在相互尊重和平等互利基础之上；第三，中方仍准备继续同美方谈判以达成协议，谈判的大门仍是敞开的。

Ambassador Cui: I think we have kept in mind, first, a good trade deal between our two countries would serve the interests of both countries. Number two, a good deal has to be made on the basis of mutual respect and mutual benefits. And number three, China remains ready to continue our talks with our American colleagues to reach a conclusion. Our door is still open.

布雷特·贝尔：《纽约时报》报道称，消息人士透露，中方对特朗普总统希达成协议的迫切心情以及能够迫使美方在多大程度上做出让步做出了误判，导致协议未能达成。关键问题还在于美方要求协议约束中方修改国内法律，此举可能被中国国内视作向美屈服。中方领导人是否也面临来自国内的压力，无法在协议中做出过多让步？

Bret Baier: New York Times wrote about the recent talks that, they failed, it’s clear because Mr. Xi misjudged Mr. Trump’s eagerness for a deal and how far he could push the American negotiators, according to more than a dozen people. A key issue was the United States demand that the agreement bind China to setting some of the changes in domestic law. For President Xi, such a move could be seen at home as a sign of caving in. We talk a lot about the political pressure here in the U.S., but is there political pressure on your President Xi? From elements inside your country, if he gives too much of a deal, that’s not a good thing.

崔大使：任何一国政府都应高度重视本国人民的利益。对美方来说可能是“美国优先”，但对中国政府来说，我们一贯维护自己国家和人民的利益。回顾过去一年来中美贸易磋商进程，就能清楚地看到，美方不止一次朝令暮改，破坏双方已达成的初步协议。中方一贯遵守承诺，是美方经常改变立场。

Ambassador Cui: I think all governments have to take the interests of its people very seriously. So maybe for the U.S. government it’s “America First”, but for the Chinese government we’ll always have to defend the national interests of China and interests of the Chinese people. But if we review the process of trade talks between us over the last year or so, it’s quite clear that it is the U.S. side, that more than once, changed the mind overnight and broke the tentative deal already reached. We are still committed to whatever we agree to do. But it is the U.S. side that changes mind so often.

布雷特·贝尔：谈到贸易逆差，（去年）中美货物贸易总额为5395亿美元，但美对华商品和服务贸易逆差为3787亿美元，约占对华贸易总额的四分之三，这是有史以来最大的贸易逆差。如站在美方角度，中方是否认为该问题应着手解决呢？

Bret Baier: If you look at the trade deficit, you have 539.5 billion dollars in two-way trade of goods. It’s about three quarters of the total trade with China, but there’s a 378.7 billion dollar trade deficit in goods and services and that’s the widest ever. Does China believe that should be dealt with from US perspective?

崔大使：贸易逆差不是简单的数字游戏，其背后有很多结构性因素。尽管如此，中方仍愿意采取措施解决贸易不平衡问题，愿意购买更多美国产品和服务，也愿意为此做出更多努力。

Ambassador Cui: Well, this trade deficit has a lot of structural reasons behind it. It’s not just a simple game of numbers, but still we are ready to address the imbalance in trade. We are ready to take actions to buy more American products and services and we are ready to do more in this regards.

布雷特·贝尔：你现在对此持乐观态度吗？

Bret Baier: You’re optimistic tonight?

崔大使：如果中美双方都有政治意愿，那么我们就能持乐观态度。

Ambassador Cui: Well, if both sides have the political will that is required, then we can be optimistic.

布雷特·贝尔：美国前副总统拜登近期发表的言论：“中国人要享用我们的午餐。他们不知如何惩治体系内的腐败，他们不是坏人，但猜猜会怎么样？对我们来说，他们不是竞争对手。”特朗普总统则说，“对我们来说，中国是一个重量级的竞争对手。他们想要接管世界。”您怎么看？您认为中国是要接管世界的强大竞争者，还是中国根本不是竞争对手？

Bret Baier: Here is the former Vice President Biden recently and President Trump, “China is going to eat our lunch. Come on, man, they can’t figure out how they’re gonna deal with the corruption that exists within the system. I mean, you know, they’re not bad folks, but guess what? They’re not a competition for us.” “China is a massive competitor for us. They want to take over the world.” So which is it? Are you a massive competitor who wants to take over the world or you’re not a competitor at all?

崔大使：首先，我们不想与美国内政有任何牵扯。实不相瞒，我们根本无法理解，遑论参与其中。第二，中国的目标始终是明确的，就是要满足14亿中国人民对更加美好生活的向往。这是我们唯一的目标。中方既无兴趣，也无意愿寻求或与其他国家争夺全球主导权。

Ambassador Cui: First of all, we don’t want to have anything to do with American domestic politics. And honestly, it’s almost impossible for us to make sense of it, still less to take part in it. Number two, the goal for China is always clear. We want to meet the growing aspiration of our 1.4 billion people for a better life. That is our only goal. We have no interest, no intention to seek global dominance or to compete with anybody else for global dominance.

布雷特·贝尔：但中国在世界上很多地方非常活跃，甚至是在那些人们认为你们不应该活跃的地方。

Bret Baier: But you are active around the world in a lot of different spaces that people didn’t think you were going to be active in.

崔大使：过去几十年来，国际社会越来越期待中国在国际事务中发挥更大作用、承担更多责任。我们只是在努力满足国际社会的期待。

Ambassador Cui: You see, over the last few decades or so, there is a growing expectation by the international community for China to play a bigger role in international affairs and to take up more responsibilities. We are just making our efforts to meet such expectation.

布雷特·贝尔：华盛顿有些人相信，中国正试图等着特朗普政府下台，好与美国新一届政府打交道。

Bret Baier: There are some in Washington who believe that China is trying to wait out the Trump administration for whatever next administration comes in.

崔大使：我们没有这样的想法，而且我们也不想牵扯到美国内政中来。

Ambassador Cui: We don’t have such illusions. And also we don’t want to have anything to do with the domestic politics here.

布雷特·贝尔：中国的政策显然完全不同。中国在人权问题上面临巨大国际压力，国际社会认为更重要、更紧迫的问题是维吾尔族等中国穆斯林群体状况。美国外交关系委员会报告指出，大约有100万人被关押在再教育营，大多数人没有受到任何犯罪指控，也缺乏司法申诉途径。通常情况下，身为穆斯林是他们唯一的罪行。中国官员坚持，这类他们叫作“职业技能教育培训中心”的机构并未侵犯维吾尔族人权。您能否确认有一百多万穆斯林被关押？

Bret Baier: Your politics obviously are a different issue and you do get a lot of foreign pressure on the issue of human rights. More importantly and urgently other foreign community is pointing to the Uyghurs and the muslim minority. Most people in these camps, roughly a million, it’s estimated, have never been charged with crimes and have no legal avenues to challenge their detentions. Often, their only crime is being muslim. Chinese officials maintain that what they call a vocational training centers do not infringe on Uyghurs’ human rights. That’s from the Council on Foreign Relations report. Are there more than a million muslims being held?

崔大使：如果尊重基本事实，就会发现多年来中国的人权状况已得到显著改善，我们所取得的进步和成就是历史性的。当然，我们仍在继续努力，力争做得更好。两三个星期前，我刚刚去过新疆。

Ambassador Cui: I think if people really respect facts, then you could see how human rights situation in China has improved dramatically over the years. Of course, we’re still trying to do better, but the improvement is historic. What we have achieved is really historic. I had a visit to Xinjiang just about two or three weeks ago.

布雷特·贝尔：就是再教育营所在地？

Bret Baier: Where these camps are?

崔大使：所谓的“再教育营” 根本不存在。我所访问的是职业技能教育培训中心。这些中心是真正的培训机构，大门敞开，也没有全副武装的看管人员，学员们周末可以回家。新疆面临的真正威胁和挑战来自恐怖主义，前几年这里的暴恐事件一度愈演愈烈，发生过几千起袭击，造成数以千计的无辜群众伤亡，因此我们面临的最大挑战是制止暴恐行动。我们正竭尽全力保护当地各族群众的人身安全和相关人权。

Ambassador Cui: There’s no camps. I visited some of the training centers. They are real training centers. They are not camps. They have open gates. There’s no armed guards. People could go home over weekend. But the real threat to Xinjiang, the real challenge in Xinjiang is the mounting terrorist attacks in previous years. That means thousands of such incidences and thousands of innocent people were killed or injured. So the biggest challenge for us is to stop such terrorist activities. And we are doing our best to protect the life, safety and human rights of the people there, people of all ethnic groups.

布雷特·贝尔：您不愿理会相关外部压力？

Bret Baier: So you discount the foreign pressure on this sweeping confinement.

崔大使：进入职业技能教育培训中心的学员，是那些有较轻微犯罪情节却还构不成真正意义上犯罪的人。我们希望通过给他们提供职业技能培训，帮助他们提高使用国家通用语言水平，帮助他们成为守法公民。这就是设立教培中心的宗旨和目的。

Ambassador Cui: You see these training centers, vocational and educational training center, they are for people who might have minor offenses, but still they are not real criminals. We want to train them for job skills, for official language and they could become law abiding citizens. That’s the whole purpose of these training centers.

布雷特·贝尔：最后一个问题，近期南海局势有所趋紧。2015年，习近平总书记曾在白宫承诺中国不会对南海人造岛礁进行军事化。但很多美军方人士表示中方近几年在有关岛礁上部署导弹和电子干扰设备，违背了相关承诺。为什么？你有什么回应？认为这是挑衅性的吗？

Bret Baier: Last thing, it has been tense, especially in the South China Sea. 2015 there was a pledge at the White House，from your General-Secretary that China would not militarize the man-made islands there. A lot of people in the military say you violated that pledge by fortifying the islands with missiles and jamming equipment in the past years. Why? How do you respond to that? And do you see that as provocative?

崔大使：南海问题实际上是中国和部分邻国的领土争端问题。过去几年来，我们同其他声索国在处理这个问题上取得了积极进展。有关国家正共同努力制定“南海行为准则”，维护地区稳定。事情正朝着正确方向发展，地区紧张局势也在降温。南海地区唯一的不稳定因素来自于美国在该地区频繁的军事活动，如所谓的航行自由行动等。这才是南海地区不稳定之源。

Ambassador Cui: The situation in South China Sea is actually the territorial disputes between China and some of our neighbors. And over the last few years, there is good progress between us and some of the claimant countries. We are working together to maintain stability there, we are working together for a Code of Conduct. So things are moving in the right direction. The situation is cooling down. And the only source of instability for the region is intensifying American military activities, the so-called freedom of navigation operation in the region. This is the only source of instability in South China Sea.

布雷特·贝尔：最后一个问题，是关于朝鲜的。我们看到对朝制裁和逃避制裁，朝鲜在言论上，行动上都更具侵略性，包括进行导弹试射等。同时，《华盛顿时报》最近有一篇关于中国企业参加平壤贸易展览会的文章。中国是否已针对朝鲜采取一切手段来推动缓和当前紧张局面？

Bret Biaer: And the very last thing that the North Korea’s. We’ve seen sanctions and evasions of sanctions. As North Korea seems to be getting more aggressive with its rhetoric and its action, (like) testing missiles. At the same time, there was a piece in the Washington Times about Chinese companies participating in a trade fair in Pyongyang just recently. Is China doing everything it can on the North Korea front to de-escalate that situation?

崔大使：中方支持美总统特朗普和朝鲜领导人金正恩之间的会晤，将竭尽所能帮助他们继续向前走。中方始终恪守并严格、有效执行联合国安理会所有涉朝决议，我们将继续这样做。同时，我们认为，以和平方式和政治解决实现半岛无核化，是唯一出路。

Ambassador Cui: We support the meetings between President Trump and Chairman Kim. And we will do whatever we can to help them to move further, to move forward. And we’re still committed to and ready to implement all the UN Security Council resolutions on the Korean Peninsula. We are implementing these resolutions in a very effective way, and will continue to do that. But at the same time, we believe a peaceful solution, a political solution is the only way out, is the only way that will help us to achieve the goal of denuclearization.

布雷特·贝尔：您认为朝核问题同中美经贸谈判这两件事是否有关联？如果中美经贸谈判进展不顺。

Bret Baier: Is it separate with the trade negotiation? Or do you see it as tied? Somehow, if it’s not going well on the trade side.

崔大使：这是两个性质完全不同的问题。当然，我们必须要看到全局。如果中美关系总体保持合作态势并朝着正确的方向发展，双方之间就会有更多互信，这将有助于我们解决所有问题。

Ambassador Cui: I think these are two different issues. They are of a different nature. But of course we have to keep in mind the big picture. If the overall relations between us is cooperative, is going in the right direction, there will be much better mutual confidence and that will help us on all the issues.

布雷特·贝尔：大使先生，我们感谢你今晚回答了一些棘手的问题，我们欢迎来自中方的声音。

Bret Baier: Mr. Ambassador, we appreciate you taking some tough questions tonight and support to hear the Chinese side.

崔大使：谢谢！

Ambassador Cui: Thank you.

布雷特·贝尔：非常感谢！

Bret Baier: Thank you very much.